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> Regarding estimates, it really is frustrating when a non-engineering manager cannot understand the inability to state any reasonable time estimation. On the

by Closi 4y ago

> Regarding estimates, it really is frustrating when a non-engineering manager cannot understand the inability to state any reasonable time estimation. On the flipside, it can be frustrating for managers that engineers sometimes can’t understand that they have to manage deadlines. If the engineer doesn’t make an educated guess at the time it will take then the manager is put in the position of making a non-educated guess (because you can’t effectively run a company without having any idea of either time or cost to deliver). The idea that it’s possible to have a project with no budget or time constraints just isn’t often the reality of the situation. Imagine going to a customer and having to say “Ok, we’ve talked to the engineering team and in order to deliver that feature you asked for they might be able to deliver it in a day for £2,000 or in a year for £500,000” This doesn’t mean that you can’t give sensical ranges, or state your assumptions when doing the estimate.

foldr 4y ago
>The idea that it’s possible to have a project with no budget or time constraints just isn’t often the reality of the situation. It must be possible because most budget and time estimates end up being way off anyway. Virtually no real projects are managed on the basis of accurate estimates of how long they'll take or how much they'll cost. Time is almost always more flexible than the people imposing the deadlines think that it is. As for budget, you just have to choose to keep spending more, or to stop (or wait till you run out of money). Making up an estimate beforehand doesn't alter that process. If management were really in the business of setting budget and time constraints, projects would constantly be getting canceled because they went $100 over budget or a week over time. In reality we all know what usually happens: the project simply continues; the estimates, deadlines, etc. are shifted.
- Closi 4y ago
  > It must be possible because most budget and time estimates end up being way off anyway. Virtually no real projects are managed on the basis of accurate estimates of how long they'll take or how much they'll cost. Making decisions on the basis of an estimate which could be plus or minus 50% is fine. It’s better than making a decision on the basis of nothing at all, and then managing the project with no clue about how long it should be taking or costing. > If management were really in the business of setting budget and time constraints, projects would constantly be getting canceled because they went $100 over budget or a week over time. This isn’t the idea of estimates - the main idea is so you can effectively allocate resource and understand cost/benefit. All companies have limited resources and must decide if they want to focus on feature A or feature B, and part of that decision will be the likely cost, risk, and timeline to deliver. You aren’t going to cancel a project when it goes (a bit) over budget because the development costs to date are already sunk (ie you only now need to consider remaining development effort in the cost/benefits calc) and the benefits are probably still the same.
  - foldr 4y ago
    But most estimates are completely wrong (much worse than +/-50%). Only accurate estimates can possibly be useful for planning, and very few estimates of time and cost for software projects are accurate.
    - Closi 4y ago
      > Only accurate estimates can possibly be useful for planning Nah, a best guess estimate is better than no estimate at all. If engineers don’t estimate it doesn't mean estimates go away, it just means they have moved responsibility of estimating away from the engineers to the management team (who will then need to make their own estimate of how difficult/expensive something is to do and how long it will take). Besides, you can be accurate without being precise - and engineers can work to become more precice over time as they gain more experience.
      - foldr 4y ago
        >Nah, a best guess estimate is better than no estimate at all. Only if it's more-or-less accurate on average. It can't possibly be the case that a highly inaccurate estimate is better than no estimate. If you don't know, you don't know, and you should plan on that basis, not on the basis of a made up estimate.
skydhash 4y ago
> On the flipside, it can be frustrating for managers that engineers sometimes can’t understand that they have to manage deadlines. Deadlines are not solved by estimations. Deadlines are a business problem that can be resolved by a discussion with your engineer to work out a plan based on that time constraint. If you have a deadline in mind for a feature, it would be better to state it directly. Then the engineer can say it can or can't be done the way you wanted. Or we need to modify the requirements to fit it in this timeframe. But the most horrendous thing I've seen is when you give an estimation, the manager treat it as an actual deadline. It should only be used to verify if everything is progressing correctly and should be revisited periodically. But not to make promises.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by Closi 4y ago

foldr 4y ago

>The idea that it’s possible to have a project with no budget or time constraints just isn’t often the reality of the situation. It must be possible because most budget and time estimates end up being way off anyway. Virtually no real projects are managed on the basis of accurate estimates of how long they'll take or how much they'll cost. Time is almost always more flexible than the people imposing the deadlines think that it is. As for budget, you just have to choose to keep spending more, or to stop (or wait till you run out of money). Making up an estimate beforehand doesn't alter that process. If management were really in the business of setting budget and time constraints, projects would constantly be getting canceled because they went $100 over budget or a week over time. In reality we all know what usually happens: the project simply continues; the estimates, deadlines, etc. are shifted.

Closi 4y ago
> It must be possible because most budget and time estimates end up being way off anyway. Virtually no real projects are managed on the basis of accurate estimates of how long they'll take or how much they'll cost. Making decisions on the basis of an estimate which could be plus or minus 50% is fine. It’s better than making a decision on the basis of nothing at all, and then managing the project with no clue about how long it should be taking or costing. > If management were really in the business of setting budget and time constraints, projects would constantly be getting canceled because they went $100 over budget or a week over time. This isn’t the idea of estimates - the main idea is so you can effectively allocate resource and understand cost/benefit. All companies have limited resources and must decide if they want to focus on feature A or feature B, and part of that decision will be the likely cost, risk, and timeline to deliver. You aren’t going to cancel a project when it goes (a bit) over budget because the development costs to date are already sunk (ie you only now need to consider remaining development effort in the cost/benefits calc) and the benefits are probably still the same.
- foldr 4y ago
  But most estimates are completely wrong (much worse than +/-50%). Only accurate estimates can possibly be useful for planning, and very few estimates of time and cost for software projects are accurate.
  - Closi 4y ago
    > Only accurate estimates can possibly be useful for planning Nah, a best guess estimate is better than no estimate at all. If engineers don’t estimate it doesn't mean estimates go away, it just means they have moved responsibility of estimating away from the engineers to the management team (who will then need to make their own estimate of how difficult/expensive something is to do and how long it will take). Besides, you can be accurate without being precise - and engineers can work to become more precice over time as they gain more experience.
    - foldr 4y ago
      >Nah, a best guess estimate is better than no estimate at all. Only if it's more-or-less accurate on average. It can't possibly be the case that a highly inaccurate estimate is better than no estimate. If you don't know, you don't know, and you should plan on that basis, not on the basis of a made up estimate.

skydhash 4y ago

> On the flipside, it can be frustrating for managers that engineers sometimes can’t understand that they have to manage deadlines. Deadlines are not solved by estimations. Deadlines are a business problem that can be resolved by a discussion with your engineer to work out a plan based on that time constraint. If you have a deadline in mind for a feature, it would be better to state it directly. Then the engineer can say it can or can't be done the way you wanted. Or we need to modify the requirements to fit it in this timeframe. But the most horrendous thing I've seen is when you give an estimation, the manager treat it as an actual deadline. It should only be used to verify if everything is progressing correctly and should be revisited periodically. But not to make promises.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]