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France wanted revenge for Haiti's independence and to send a message to its other colonies. So, Haiti had to pay huge amounts of money to France until 1947. In

France wanted revenge for Haiti's independence and to send a message to its other colonies. So, Haiti had to pay huge amounts of money to France until 1947. In order to fund this, they began harvesting wood at an unsustainable pace which led to deforestation. This in turn led to a decrease in agricultural output which started a cascade of other problems. It has been essential for the development of almost every country in a similar situation, to initially rely heavily on agriculture. If you remove that, then that's a recipe for disaster. There wasn't knowledge/investment in the country to jump to an industrial economy so they got stuck in their developmental phase, because of the massive deforestation.

PontifexMinimus 4y ago
You say it was a huge amount; the article says it was a small amount. Unfortunately neither of you states the amount, so it is hard for me to assess how big it was.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- tchalla 4y ago
  > After reviewing thousands of pages of archival documents, some centuries old, and consulting with 15 of the world’s leading economists, our correspondents calculated that the payments to France cost Haiti from $21 billion to $115 billion in lost economic growth over time. That is as much as eight times the size of Haiti’s entire economy in 2020. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/world/americas/takeaways-haiti-reparations-france.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/world/americas/takeaways-...
  - bluepizza 4y ago
    Not only that range is wildly imprecise, it also happens to not answer the question.
  - makomk 4y ago
    That's not the actual size of Haiti's reparations to France though - it's completely imaginaary, hypothetical money that the New York Times is claiming Haiti would've made if not for the evil colonialists ruining their economy through reparations. The actual total reparations according to that article were $560 million in today's dollars, or between a fortieth to a two hundreth of how much the NYT is claiming it really cost Haiti. That claim should probably be taken with a massive pinch of salt given the quality of their reporting on race, slavery and colonialism of late. Just the way they seem to be comparing the supposed cost of those reparations over all time to one year of GDP here seems pretty slimy. The part you quoted is clearly intended to make an inattentive reader think Haiti's GDP would've been eigth times larger if not for reparations, but not only is that not what it actually says, it's impossible to tell how big the supposed loss is compared to the size of their economy - the two are stated in incomparable ways.
    - tchalla 4y ago
      > But the loss to Haiti cannot just be measured by adding up how much was paid to France and to outside lenders over the years. > Every franc shipped across the Atlantic to an overseas bank vault was a franc not circulating among Haiti’s farmers, laborers and merchants, or not being invested in bridges, schools or factories — the sort of expenditures that help nations become nations, that enable them to prosper. The cost of reparations versus the impact is different. The impact is a guesstimate, the cost isn’t.
    - booblik 4y ago
      In fact, the money not paid to France would be simply stolen by local kleptocrats
  - faeriechangling 4y ago
    The debt with France does not have any explanatory power as to why the DR's and Haiti's economic fates diverged though. Even if the debt held Haiti back from the glory it would have otherwise seen, or stagnated its economic development by many decades, we would still expect Haiti's economy to grow AFTER the debt was paid off to a much greater extent than it did. There to me, is clearly more afoot here than the evils of France.
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      It’s not like the entire country worked weekends to pay this off. The debt skimmed the cream from the country, and the political maneuvering by various parties introduced pliant, corrupt leadership. Haiti has been a failed state for a long time.
    - EUROCARE 4y ago
      No we wouldn't, if the debt caused destruction of the local environment (which it did) there's no way how they could've started making money. Just importing food and other basic goods would starve their resources and give them no room for investment.
      - faeriechangling 4y ago
        Looking into the stats, Haiti had 60% of forest cover in 1923 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_in_Haiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_in_Haiti. If the debt made deforestation inevitable, why did Haiti have so many forests far into the servicing of the debt? I feel there MUST be something which happened in the 20th century which really accelerated deforestation aside from the debt. I just don't buy the "debt destroyed all future economic/agricultural output" angle at all. If you just showed people a bunch of chart of different countries economic information and agricultural output devoid of broader context, nobody would probably EVER come to the conclusion that the debt led to the stagnation in agricultural output in Haiti from the numbers alone. If you compared the debt vs deforestation, again, nobody would conclude the debt caused the deforestation from the actual data. People would only ever conclude that if they're being shown unblinded data. Let me stress here - I'm not even saying this must all be Haiti's fault, or that debt didn't have a profound impact which have shrunk Haiti's economy many times over. I'm saying the debt doesn't explain what happened. I feel like I'm getting a fraction of the picture here. All sorts of wild shit happened in Haiti in the 20th century, the United States occupied the country for instance and the deforestation correlates MUCH more strongly with this occupation than it does the debt.
- dantondwa 4y ago
  I will post here the first paragraph of [1], as it directly provides this bit of information: "The Haiti indemnity controversy involves an 1825 agreement between Haiti and France that included France demanding a 150 million franc indemnity to be paid by Haiti in claims over property – including Haitian slaves – that was lost through the Haitian Revolution in return for diplomatic recognition, with the debt costing Haiti $21 to 115 billion of economic growth over a period of two centuries and affecting the nation to this day. The payment was later reduced to 90 million francs in 1838, comparable to US$21 billion as of 2004, with Haiti paying about 112 million francs in total.[4] Over the 122 years between 1825 and 1947 the debt severely hampered Haitian economic development as payments of interest and downpayments totaled a significant share of Haitian GDP yearly, constraining the use of domestic financial funds for infrastructure, public services and ultimately making the nation ungovernable." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
onphonenow 4y ago
It’s not clear they fell behind during the debt period. The timing is off isn’t it. They fell behind later Aren’t there other crazy divergences out there? Singapore and mylasia or something?
- thematrixturtle 4y ago
  Singapore is a compact city-state, Malaysia has almost 500x the land area split across two major land masses to boot. The classic divergence is North vs South Korea, which were practically identical until the Korean War. Historically the North was richer, now the South is orders of magnitude wealthier.
  - tut-urut-utut 4y ago
    Obviously two Koreas had different priorities. What you said is true, but on the other hand, North Korea is an independent nuclear power, while South Korea is a kind of corrupt vassal state hosting foreign army on their soil.
    - ianhawes 4y ago
      “Independent” if we pretend China doesn’t exist.
    - everybodyknows 4y ago
      > vassal state hosting foreign army on their soil. By that criterion, Japan and Germany are likewise "vassal states".
      - tut-urut-utut 4y ago
        Of course they are. When was the last time Germany actually did something against the interest of the Empire?
        laverya 4y ago
mrtree 4y ago
user3939382 4y ago
That France could extract this high a price really puts the concept of “independence” into perspective.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  I think it rather puts the competency of Haiti's government into perspective... if needed be.
zajio1am 4y ago
[flagged]
- VictorPath 4y ago
  > confiscation of their property and land Observe the colonial/imperial mindset - gun-trotting French sail to the Caribbean and steal land from Taino Indians, and kidnap and enslave Africans to do the work. Then back home, the king is guillotined and eventually even Danton is guillotined. The enslaved Africans eventually rebel against the slave masters, and they get into a sanctimonious huff about how "their land" was confiscated.
  - Glawen 4y ago
    As you mention, it is also not the slaves land either as they came from Africa. So why is it more slaves land than french land?
    - boomboomsubban 4y ago
      Ignoring the evidence that the enslaved Taino to some extent integrated with the imported slaves, the slaves made up 90% of the population and likely an even higher percentage of the workforce. That should give them the best claim to the land
      - Glawen 4y ago
        So once we reach 90% of the population we can rightfully claim the land? That's how it works? Let me take note for the future then.
        boomboomsubban 4y ago
        I mean yeah? If your people spend a century integrating with the locals and working the land to the point where you make up the overwhelming majority of the population, it's pretty fair to say you have some right to it.
tchalla 4y ago
And unfortunately, it's not just France > For decades to come, the United States was the dominant power in Haiti, dissolving parliament at gunpoint, killing thousands and shipping a big portion of Haiti’s earnings to bankers in New York while the farmers who helped generate the profits often lived near starvation. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/world/americas/takeaways-haiti-reparations-france.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/world/americas/takeaways-...
fredestine 4y ago
south korea also paid huge amounts of money to developed nations in exchange they applied policies that were favoring those countries. they are now one of the most developed countries on earth.
- rurban 4y ago
  sure, the power of fascism. as long as you engage in fascist politics, you will be rich. in Haiti the US ensured that nothing much changed in the last century. this article is the typical mouthpiece of such propaganda
_9xrb 4y ago
[flagged]
- upofadown 4y ago
  Not really a genocide as such. The people were not being massacred because they were European, they were being massacred because they were slavers. That doesn't even strike me as particularly unjust, particularly for an era where serious crimes resulted in capital punishment. Slavery steals lives too and in a more horrific way than straight up murder.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Paradigma11 4y ago
    From what i remember reading up on it last time many of those massacred fought on the side of the slaves for an independent haiti.
    - deepdriver 4y ago
      I also remembered that quote from the Wiki page, but it seems there's controversy over the source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1804_Haiti_massacre#Sympathetic_whites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1804_Haiti_massacre#Sympa... I don't know if I agree with the editor's rationale for removal, but they list the source book's title if you're interested to dig deeper.
  - legalcorrection 4y ago
    Wrong. They killed every white person they could possibly find.
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      You forgot Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Haitians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Haitians
prvc 4y ago
Do you have a source for your claim that the imposition of reparations was motivated by a desire for "revenge"?
leereeves 4y ago
> deforestation ... in turn led to a decrease in agricultural output Can you explain your theory here? Deforestation happened all over the world and usually increased agricultural output (by creating more farmland). Why do you think deforestation led to a different outcome in Haiti?
- kentrado 4y ago
  This was excessive deforestation due to the pressures of the debt. Which led to desertification. This excessive deforestation didn't happen in the Dominican Republic, which explains the difference. If you visit Haiti and the Dominican Republic you would be able to tell the difference in climate and soil. "To the west of the island of Hispaniola is Haiti, only 3% of which now has forest coverage. Although the Dominican Republic that makes up the east of the island still has 23%. At least 90% of Haiti’s soils have been severely degraded by deforestation and inappropriate cultivation as compared to 40% for the Dominican Republic." [1] [1] - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269670285_A_Case_Study_of_the_Desertification_of_Haiti https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269670285_A_Case_St...
  - EdwardDiego 4y ago
    Not sure if desertification is the right word for "all the fertile topsoil washed off the hills in the rains, and without trees to moderate drainage, river flood more often, and those floods cover productive land downstream in infertile silt".
    - kentrado 4y ago
      Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Did you take from what I said to mean that the entire country turned into a desert? Haiti has become more desertic in some parts due to the deforestation and that causes a number of things to happen that affect soil quality including floods.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Perhaps try googling “Haiti deforestation” at a bare minimum. tl;dr, they needed cash crops, the forests were cut down to grow coffee.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Might also be worth stating, that it was a restored French Monarchy, in conjunction with other European Monarchies that extorted this money with a threat of invasion. Since they were basically doing the same all across Europe in the same period, putting down the first tentative steps into modern European democracy, we don't really need to frame it as Haitians Vs French, but (literally) right-wing vs democracy. https://www.history.com/.amp/news/how-did-the-political-labels-left-wing-and-right-wing-originate https://www.history.com/.amp/news/how-did-the-political-labe... Which also would appear to be the basis for the current split in opinion too.
legalcorrection 4y ago
The reparations were not for independence, but for the genocide the revolting slaves committed against every white person they could find in Haiti.
mytailorisrich 4y ago
France is used as a scapegoat. The situation of Haiti today has nothing to do with France. Haiti has, and has had, an utterly corrupt and incompetent government/state. That's why they are in the situation they are in.
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >Haiti has, and has had, an utterly corrupt and incompetent government/state. That's why they are in the situation they are in. Relevant Reddit post: TIL that Haiti has had 23 constitutions since 1801, with the most recent being enacted in 2012. At least two have declared the country to be an empire. <https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_that_haiti_has_had_23_constitutions_since/ https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_th...>
- kentrado 4y ago
  >Haiti has, and has had, an utterly corrupt and incompetent government/state. That's why they are in the situation they are in. So does the Dominican Republic government.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    There are different levels in everything and you'd be hard-pressed to find worse than Haiti. According to Wikipedia, the Dominican Republic has the fastest growing economy of the Americas while Haiti is the poorest country in the Americas (And neither has anything to do with France, and since the US meddled in both and even occupied both they probably have little to do with either as well)
    - kentrado 4y ago
      The difference is not that Dominicans are smarter Hatians (which I think is what you are dancing around). The DR has enjoyed more political stability due to the amount of foreign investments in the country which would have never happened if the DR was stuck in a precarious developmental stage, as it was the case with Haiti.

PontifexMinimus 4y ago

You say it was a huge amount; the article says it was a small amount. Unfortunately neither of you states the amount, so it is hard for me to assess how big it was.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tchalla 4y ago
> After reviewing thousands of pages of archival documents, some centuries old, and consulting with 15 of the world’s leading economists, our correspondents calculated that the payments to France cost Haiti from $21 billion to $115 billion in lost economic growth over time. That is as much as eight times the size of Haiti’s entire economy in 2020. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/world/americas/takeaways-haiti-reparations-france.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/world/americas/takeaways-...
- bluepizza 4y ago
  Not only that range is wildly imprecise, it also happens to not answer the question.
- makomk 4y ago
  That's not the actual size of Haiti's reparations to France though - it's completely imaginaary, hypothetical money that the New York Times is claiming Haiti would've made if not for the evil colonialists ruining their economy through reparations. The actual total reparations according to that article were $560 million in today's dollars, or between a fortieth to a two hundreth of how much the NYT is claiming it really cost Haiti. That claim should probably be taken with a massive pinch of salt given the quality of their reporting on race, slavery and colonialism of late. Just the way they seem to be comparing the supposed cost of those reparations over all time to one year of GDP here seems pretty slimy. The part you quoted is clearly intended to make an inattentive reader think Haiti's GDP would've been eigth times larger if not for reparations, but not only is that not what it actually says, it's impossible to tell how big the supposed loss is compared to the size of their economy - the two are stated in incomparable ways.
  - tchalla 4y ago
    > But the loss to Haiti cannot just be measured by adding up how much was paid to France and to outside lenders over the years. > Every franc shipped across the Atlantic to an overseas bank vault was a franc not circulating among Haiti’s farmers, laborers and merchants, or not being invested in bridges, schools or factories — the sort of expenditures that help nations become nations, that enable them to prosper. The cost of reparations versus the impact is different. The impact is a guesstimate, the cost isn’t.
  - booblik 4y ago
    In fact, the money not paid to France would be simply stolen by local kleptocrats
- faeriechangling 4y ago
  The debt with France does not have any explanatory power as to why the DR's and Haiti's economic fates diverged though. Even if the debt held Haiti back from the glory it would have otherwise seen, or stagnated its economic development by many decades, we would still expect Haiti's economy to grow AFTER the debt was paid off to a much greater extent than it did. There to me, is clearly more afoot here than the evils of France.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    It’s not like the entire country worked weekends to pay this off. The debt skimmed the cream from the country, and the political maneuvering by various parties introduced pliant, corrupt leadership. Haiti has been a failed state for a long time.
  - EUROCARE 4y ago
    No we wouldn't, if the debt caused destruction of the local environment (which it did) there's no way how they could've started making money. Just importing food and other basic goods would starve their resources and give them no room for investment.
    - faeriechangling 4y ago
      Looking into the stats, Haiti had 60% of forest cover in 1923 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_in_Haiti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_in_Haiti. If the debt made deforestation inevitable, why did Haiti have so many forests far into the servicing of the debt? I feel there MUST be something which happened in the 20th century which really accelerated deforestation aside from the debt. I just don't buy the "debt destroyed all future economic/agricultural output" angle at all. If you just showed people a bunch of chart of different countries economic information and agricultural output devoid of broader context, nobody would probably EVER come to the conclusion that the debt led to the stagnation in agricultural output in Haiti from the numbers alone. If you compared the debt vs deforestation, again, nobody would conclude the debt caused the deforestation from the actual data. People would only ever conclude that if they're being shown unblinded data. Let me stress here - I'm not even saying this must all be Haiti's fault, or that debt didn't have a profound impact which have shrunk Haiti's economy many times over. I'm saying the debt doesn't explain what happened. I feel like I'm getting a fraction of the picture here. All sorts of wild shit happened in Haiti in the 20th century, the United States occupied the country for instance and the deforestation correlates MUCH more strongly with this occupation than it does the debt.
dantondwa 4y ago
I will post here the first paragraph of [1], as it directly provides this bit of information: "The Haiti indemnity controversy involves an 1825 agreement between Haiti and France that included France demanding a 150 million franc indemnity to be paid by Haiti in claims over property – including Haitian slaves – that was lost through the Haitian Revolution in return for diplomatic recognition, with the debt costing Haiti $21 to 115 billion of economic growth over a period of two centuries and affecting the nation to this day. The payment was later reduced to 90 million francs in 1838, comparable to US$21 billion as of 2004, with Haiti paying about 112 million francs in total.[4] Over the 122 years between 1825 and 1947 the debt severely hampered Haitian economic development as payments of interest and downpayments totaled a significant share of Haitian GDP yearly, constraining the use of domestic financial funds for infrastructure, public services and ultimately making the nation ungovernable." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

onphonenow 4y ago

It’s not clear they fell behind during the debt period. The timing is off isn’t it. They fell behind later Aren’t there other crazy divergences out there? Singapore and mylasia or something?

thematrixturtle 4y ago
Singapore is a compact city-state, Malaysia has almost 500x the land area split across two major land masses to boot. The classic divergence is North vs South Korea, which were practically identical until the Korean War. Historically the North was richer, now the South is orders of magnitude wealthier.
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  Obviously two Koreas had different priorities. What you said is true, but on the other hand, North Korea is an independent nuclear power, while South Korea is a kind of corrupt vassal state hosting foreign army on their soil.
  - ianhawes 4y ago
    “Independent” if we pretend China doesn’t exist.
  - everybodyknows 4y ago
    > vassal state hosting foreign army on their soil. By that criterion, Japan and Germany are likewise "vassal states".
    - tut-urut-utut 4y ago
      Of course they are. When was the last time Germany actually did something against the interest of the Empire?
      - laverya 4y ago

mrtree 4y ago

user3939382 4y ago

That France could extract this high a price really puts the concept of “independence” into perspective.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
I think it rather puts the competency of Haiti's government into perspective... if needed be.

zajio1am 4y ago

[flagged]

VictorPath 4y ago
> confiscation of their property and land Observe the colonial/imperial mindset - gun-trotting French sail to the Caribbean and steal land from Taino Indians, and kidnap and enslave Africans to do the work. Then back home, the king is guillotined and eventually even Danton is guillotined. The enslaved Africans eventually rebel against the slave masters, and they get into a sanctimonious huff about how "their land" was confiscated.
- Glawen 4y ago
  As you mention, it is also not the slaves land either as they came from Africa. So why is it more slaves land than french land?
  - boomboomsubban 4y ago
    Ignoring the evidence that the enslaved Taino to some extent integrated with the imported slaves, the slaves made up 90% of the population and likely an even higher percentage of the workforce. That should give them the best claim to the land
    - Glawen 4y ago
      So once we reach 90% of the population we can rightfully claim the land? That's how it works? Let me take note for the future then.
      - boomboomsubban 4y ago
        I mean yeah? If your people spend a century integrating with the locals and working the land to the point where you make up the overwhelming majority of the population, it's pretty fair to say you have some right to it.

tchalla 4y ago

And unfortunately, it's not just France > For decades to come, the United States was the dominant power in Haiti, dissolving parliament at gunpoint, killing thousands and shipping a big portion of Haiti’s earnings to bankers in New York while the farmers who helped generate the profits often lived near starvation. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/world/americas/takeaways-haiti-reparations-france.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/world/americas/takeaways-...

fredestine 4y ago

south korea also paid huge amounts of money to developed nations in exchange they applied policies that were favoring those countries. they are now one of the most developed countries on earth.

rurban 4y ago
sure, the power of fascism. as long as you engage in fascist politics, you will be rich. in Haiti the US ensured that nothing much changed in the last century. this article is the typical mouthpiece of such propaganda

_9xrb 4y ago

[flagged]

upofadown 4y ago
Not really a genocide as such. The people were not being massacred because they were European, they were being massacred because they were slavers. That doesn't even strike me as particularly unjust, particularly for an era where serious crimes resulted in capital punishment. Slavery steals lives too and in a more horrific way than straight up murder.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Paradigma11 4y ago
  From what i remember reading up on it last time many of those massacred fought on the side of the slaves for an independent haiti.
  - deepdriver 4y ago
    I also remembered that quote from the Wiki page, but it seems there's controversy over the source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1804_Haiti_massacre#Sympathetic_whites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1804_Haiti_massacre#Sympa... I don't know if I agree with the editor's rationale for removal, but they list the source book's title if you're interested to dig deeper.
- legalcorrection 4y ago
  Wrong. They killed every white person they could possibly find.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    You forgot Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Haitians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Haitians

prvc 4y ago

Do you have a source for your claim that the imposition of reparations was motivated by a desire for "revenge"?

leereeves 4y ago

> deforestation ... in turn led to a decrease in agricultural output Can you explain your theory here? Deforestation happened all over the world and usually increased agricultural output (by creating more farmland). Why do you think deforestation led to a different outcome in Haiti?

kentrado 4y ago
This was excessive deforestation due to the pressures of the debt. Which led to desertification. This excessive deforestation didn't happen in the Dominican Republic, which explains the difference. If you visit Haiti and the Dominican Republic you would be able to tell the difference in climate and soil. "To the west of the island of Hispaniola is Haiti, only 3% of which now has forest coverage. Although the Dominican Republic that makes up the east of the island still has 23%. At least 90% of Haiti’s soils have been severely degraded by deforestation and inappropriate cultivation as compared to 40% for the Dominican Republic." [1] [1] - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269670285_A_Case_Study_of_the_Desertification_of_Haiti https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269670285_A_Case_St...
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  Not sure if desertification is the right word for "all the fertile topsoil washed off the hills in the rains, and without trees to moderate drainage, river flood more often, and those floods cover productive land downstream in infertile silt".
  - kentrado 4y ago
    Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Did you take from what I said to mean that the entire country turned into a desert? Haiti has become more desertic in some parts due to the deforestation and that causes a number of things to happen that affect soil quality including floods.
Spooky23 4y ago
Perhaps try googling “Haiti deforestation” at a bare minimum. tl;dr, they needed cash crops, the forests were cut down to grow coffee.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

Might also be worth stating, that it was a restored French Monarchy, in conjunction with other European Monarchies that extorted this money with a threat of invasion. Since they were basically doing the same all across Europe in the same period, putting down the first tentative steps into modern European democracy, we don't really need to frame it as Haitians Vs French, but (literally) right-wing vs democracy. https://www.history.com/.amp/news/how-did-the-political-labels-left-wing-and-right-wing-originate https://www.history.com/.amp/news/how-did-the-political-labe... Which also would appear to be the basis for the current split in opinion too.

legalcorrection 4y ago

The reparations were not for independence, but for the genocide the revolting slaves committed against every white person they could find in Haiti.

mytailorisrich 4y ago

France is used as a scapegoat. The situation of Haiti today has nothing to do with France. Haiti has, and has had, an utterly corrupt and incompetent government/state. That's why they are in the situation they are in.

TMWNN 4y ago
>Haiti has, and has had, an utterly corrupt and incompetent government/state. That's why they are in the situation they are in. Relevant Reddit post: TIL that Haiti has had 23 constitutions since 1801, with the most recent being enacted in 2012. At least two have declared the country to be an empire. <https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_that_haiti_has_had_23_constitutions_since/ https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_th...>
kentrado 4y ago
>Haiti has, and has had, an utterly corrupt and incompetent government/state. That's why they are in the situation they are in. So does the Dominican Republic government.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  There are different levels in everything and you'd be hard-pressed to find worse than Haiti. According to Wikipedia, the Dominican Republic has the fastest growing economy of the Americas while Haiti is the poorest country in the Americas (And neither has anything to do with France, and since the US meddled in both and even occupied both they probably have little to do with either as well)
  - kentrado 4y ago
    The difference is not that Dominicans are smarter Hatians (which I think is what you are dancing around). The DR has enjoyed more political stability due to the amount of foreign investments in the country which would have never happened if the DR was stuck in a precarious developmental stage, as it was the case with Haiti.