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Is this why African countries were so prosperous before the scramble for Africa kicked off in the 1870s? And why today, the countries in Africa least touched by

Is this why African countries were so prosperous before the scramble for Africa kicked off in the 1870s? And why today, the countries in Africa least touched by colonialism are the most well off? Or are they, actually. The human development index [HDI,1] can serve as a proxy for "prosperity", but I'm having a hard time finding the "degree of colonization" each country suffered, to see if the two are anti-correlated. The closest I could find was that Ethiopia and Liberia are considered to never have been colonized [2], but both are near the bottom of the HDI list. Maybe duration or how recently colonization ended could be used instead. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African_countries_by_H... [2] https://www.thoughtco.com/countries-in-africa-considered-never-colonized-43742 https://www.thoughtco.com/countries-in-africa-considered-nev... (I found it amusing how the article says Turkey was never colonized by the West. Yes. In fact, a large chunk of Europe was under Turkish colonial control [3]. One could argue a large chunk, Byzantium, still is, but is no longer considered Europe due to being conquered.) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_evolution_of_the_Ottoman_Empire#1862 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_evolution_of_the_O...

Simon_O_Rourke 4y ago
I'm surprised Ethiopia is that low down on the human development index. Addis Ababa seemed pretty developed compared to places I've been to in Texas.
- grapeskin 4y ago
  There are a lot of places that have a really nice major city that gets foreign investment and stays under the watchful eye of the government. Other places, particularly rural, fall to the wayside. The US has a lot of interest in catering to rural/suburban voters, sometimes more so than they do cities.
VictorPath 4y ago
> Is this why African countries were so prosperous before the scramble for Africa kicked off in the 1870s? African countries were prosperous. In sub-Saharan Africa, hunter-gatherer bands often worked less than 40 hours a week (as observed by anthropologists even after the Scramble for Africa). This prosperity exceeded that of many programmers working in the San Francisco Bay area today.
- aksss 4y ago
  Hunter-gatherer cultures were also only ever one bad season away from starvation/famine, highly dependent upon very specialized workers. Agriculture required more work in quantity of hours, but there are decided advantages to it - general prosperity being the primary one. Humanity has voted on this. By and large, cultures have moved in one direction on this question, consistently, for eons.
  - VictorPath 4y ago
    > Hunter-gatherer cultures were also only ever one bad season away from starvation/famine Huh? Famines, disease outbreaks and such were much more common at the beginning of the agricultural revolution. Hunter-gatherer bands were much safer from famine than early agricultural workers. This was true from the beginning, to the Irish famine in the UK 170 years ago. And insofar as epidemics - we are in at least one right now, if the monkey pox one doesn't get set to make two. Insofar as general prosperity - the inflation-adjusted hourly wage in the US is below what it was a half century ago. This also pre-dates the recent inflation and Covid. I don't see how wages falling over the past 50 years is some sort of general prosperity.
    - aksss 4y ago
      This is about the shaky existence one group of people will have living the H/G lifestyle. Animal populations fluctuate naturally, disease and accidents affect skilled workers, affect animals, plants. Droughts the same. H/G populations are highly vulnerable to these whims of nature in a way that agricultural societies are more insulated from. Sure bad things happen to agricultural societies too, but it is (evidently) more a more stable and prosperous existence in the main. In terms of general prosperity, you're comparing some metrics today to 50 years ago, and I'm not sure I understand the relevance. We were no more a H/G society 50 years ago than we are today. Do you know of any H/G societies that exist today? How does their prosperity compare to the poorest of the developed world? Do you know any developed nations that are still hunter/gather societies? Do you think this is merely coincidence or perhaps a big conspiracy?
- 4y ago
pjmlp 4y ago
Before the independence wars, all modern stuff reached our colonies before they were even an idea in Lisbon. After the independence and continuous wars, mostly sponsored by western countries, they keep a shadow of their former selves. I have been a couple of times in African countries and it is quite sad to see how hard it is to come out of this vicious circle. I also find tragic that in some countries despite being independent, the colonization for all practical effects never left, because most companies that offer jobs worth having, are in the hands of European/US multinationals or expats.
selimthegrim 4y ago
Mmm, are Bosnia and Albania not Europe to you either? If some part of Europe had stayed pagan (say Hungary) would that be Europe either?

Simon_O_Rourke 4y ago

I'm surprised Ethiopia is that low down on the human development index. Addis Ababa seemed pretty developed compared to places I've been to in Texas.

grapeskin 4y ago
There are a lot of places that have a really nice major city that gets foreign investment and stays under the watchful eye of the government. Other places, particularly rural, fall to the wayside. The US has a lot of interest in catering to rural/suburban voters, sometimes more so than they do cities.

VictorPath 4y ago

> Is this why African countries were so prosperous before the scramble for Africa kicked off in the 1870s? African countries were prosperous. In sub-Saharan Africa, hunter-gatherer bands often worked less than 40 hours a week (as observed by anthropologists even after the Scramble for Africa). This prosperity exceeded that of many programmers working in the San Francisco Bay area today.

aksss 4y ago
Hunter-gatherer cultures were also only ever one bad season away from starvation/famine, highly dependent upon very specialized workers. Agriculture required more work in quantity of hours, but there are decided advantages to it - general prosperity being the primary one. Humanity has voted on this. By and large, cultures have moved in one direction on this question, consistently, for eons.
- VictorPath 4y ago
  > Hunter-gatherer cultures were also only ever one bad season away from starvation/famine Huh? Famines, disease outbreaks and such were much more common at the beginning of the agricultural revolution. Hunter-gatherer bands were much safer from famine than early agricultural workers. This was true from the beginning, to the Irish famine in the UK 170 years ago. And insofar as epidemics - we are in at least one right now, if the monkey pox one doesn't get set to make two. Insofar as general prosperity - the inflation-adjusted hourly wage in the US is below what it was a half century ago. This also pre-dates the recent inflation and Covid. I don't see how wages falling over the past 50 years is some sort of general prosperity.
  - aksss 4y ago
    This is about the shaky existence one group of people will have living the H/G lifestyle. Animal populations fluctuate naturally, disease and accidents affect skilled workers, affect animals, plants. Droughts the same. H/G populations are highly vulnerable to these whims of nature in a way that agricultural societies are more insulated from. Sure bad things happen to agricultural societies too, but it is (evidently) more a more stable and prosperous existence in the main. In terms of general prosperity, you're comparing some metrics today to 50 years ago, and I'm not sure I understand the relevance. We were no more a H/G society 50 years ago than we are today. Do you know of any H/G societies that exist today? How does their prosperity compare to the poorest of the developed world? Do you know any developed nations that are still hunter/gather societies? Do you think this is merely coincidence or perhaps a big conspiracy?
4y ago

pjmlp 4y ago

Before the independence wars, all modern stuff reached our colonies before they were even an idea in Lisbon. After the independence and continuous wars, mostly sponsored by western countries, they keep a shadow of their former selves. I have been a couple of times in African countries and it is quite sad to see how hard it is to come out of this vicious circle. I also find tragic that in some countries despite being independent, the colonization for all practical effects never left, because most companies that offer jobs worth having, are in the hands of European/US multinationals or expats.

selimthegrim 4y ago

Mmm, are Bosnia and Albania not Europe to you either? If some part of Europe had stayed pagan (say Hungary) would that be Europe either?