4 ms·

I would prefer to see this because the current ability to replace batteries in EVs is crap. I’ve owned enough second hand laptops to know what second hand EV o

by iasay 4y ago

I would prefer to see this because the current ability to replace batteries in EVs is crap. I’ve owned enough second hand laptops to know what second hand EV ownership is going to feel like.

adrianN 4y ago
Laptop batteries and EV batteries have a completely different performance profile. The data we have suggests that the battery will retain 80% of its maximum capacity for about as long as the rest of the car is expected to survive.
- ngrilly 4y ago
  Is it mainly because cars are idle/off most of the time, unlike laptops and smartphones, or is there something else at play here?
  - cjdell 4y ago
    Big batteries have much more sophisticated battery management systems that are designed to be as kind as possible to the cells. Also they reserve a capacity of 10% on either side, leaving 80% usable capacity available to the user. Li-Ion batteries don't like being fully charged or fully discharged. Also due to their capacity most EVs are charged at about 0.1C whereas phones (especially with rapid chargers) are charged anywhere between 1C and 3C.
- iasay 4y ago
  You miss the point. Most people don’t buy new cars. Most people buy second hand vehicles. They now risk degraded batteries and a huge incidental cost. My car cost me £5000 second hand. The cheapest EV battery replacement here is £12,500. I could write that car off twice for the price of a battery and still have enough money to go on holiday. When you buy the bottom end of the second hand EV market which is realistically what most people will have to spend on, you’re looking at the 160 mile range leaf. With an 80% battery that’s 128 miles of range. Which is near useless for the average user. I couldn’t even drive to see my mother in it without charging twice on the way. I will not own an EV as the incidental risk trade off is too high and the up front cost of a new EV is too high.
  - rightbyte 4y ago
    > 128 miles of range. Which is near useless for the average user Maybe if that is your only car. As a commuter or grocery car it would be fine.
    - iasay 4y ago
      Why would you want a car that can be used only for those tasks leaving you to seek other forms of transport for leisure and family? The main positive factor of vehicle ownership is destination and route flexibility and if you trade that away then the advantage is gone.
      - rightbyte 4y ago
        The main cost for cheap 2nd hand cars is the fuel in my experience. So you can have a cheap fuel commuter car and a "real" car for trips and towing your boat. Requires parking for two cars though. But since we are talking about an EV it requires a house anyways since most apartments have no charging.
        iasay 4y ago
        Yeah but you can manage the fuel within your cash flow. Difficult to get credit and manage the purchase of a large expensive car. And having two cars is too expensive as well.
        rightbyte 4y ago
        True. The setup kinda requires that you need two cars in the first place.
        jsjohnst 4y ago
        > And having two cars is too expensive as well. Maybe so, but the average American family has about 2 cars. Lots of sources for that, but here’s one from top of search results: https://housegrail.com/how-many-cars-does-the-average-american-own/ https://housegrail.com/how-many-cars-does-the-average-americ...
- tzs 4y ago
  > The data we have suggests that the battery will retain 80% of its maximum capacity for about as long as the rest of the car is expected to survive. How long is the rest of the car expected to survive? I rarely do long range driving, and my commute was short for years (a couple miles each way) for about a decade before we switched to work from home a couple years before the pandemic, and I'm not interested in travel so my usage is not going to up much when I retire in a few years. I anticipate a need for at most 100k over the rest of my life, which almost certainly will be less than 25 years. Would a current EV be likely be able to handle that with just reasonable maintenance? I'm currently driving a 2006 Honda CR-V that I bought new and could probably reasonably keep driving another 10-15 years. That's what I want out of an EV.
bryanlarsen 4y ago
You're commenting on an article about LFP batteries which have an expected lifespan of about 750,000 kilometers.
- iasay 4y ago
  When they deliver them and have been on the market for 10 years we have data. Until then it’s vapourware.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Chinese manufacturers have been shipping LFP car batteries for several years now.

by iasay 4y ago

I would prefer to see this because the current ability to replace batteries in EVs is crap. I’ve owned enough second hand laptops to know what second hand EV ownership is going to feel like.

adrianN 4y ago

Laptop batteries and EV batteries have a completely different performance profile. The data we have suggests that the battery will retain 80% of its maximum capacity for about as long as the rest of the car is expected to survive.

ngrilly 4y ago
Is it mainly because cars are idle/off most of the time, unlike laptops and smartphones, or is there something else at play here?
- cjdell 4y ago
  Big batteries have much more sophisticated battery management systems that are designed to be as kind as possible to the cells. Also they reserve a capacity of 10% on either side, leaving 80% usable capacity available to the user. Li-Ion batteries don't like being fully charged or fully discharged. Also due to their capacity most EVs are charged at about 0.1C whereas phones (especially with rapid chargers) are charged anywhere between 1C and 3C.
iasay 4y ago
You miss the point. Most people don’t buy new cars. Most people buy second hand vehicles. They now risk degraded batteries and a huge incidental cost. My car cost me £5000 second hand. The cheapest EV battery replacement here is £12,500. I could write that car off twice for the price of a battery and still have enough money to go on holiday. When you buy the bottom end of the second hand EV market which is realistically what most people will have to spend on, you’re looking at the 160 mile range leaf. With an 80% battery that’s 128 miles of range. Which is near useless for the average user. I couldn’t even drive to see my mother in it without charging twice on the way. I will not own an EV as the incidental risk trade off is too high and the up front cost of a new EV is too high.
- rightbyte 4y ago
  > 128 miles of range. Which is near useless for the average user Maybe if that is your only car. As a commuter or grocery car it would be fine.
  - iasay 4y ago
    Why would you want a car that can be used only for those tasks leaving you to seek other forms of transport for leisure and family? The main positive factor of vehicle ownership is destination and route flexibility and if you trade that away then the advantage is gone.
    - rightbyte 4y ago
      The main cost for cheap 2nd hand cars is the fuel in my experience. So you can have a cheap fuel commuter car and a "real" car for trips and towing your boat. Requires parking for two cars though. But since we are talking about an EV it requires a house anyways since most apartments have no charging.
      - iasay 4y ago
        Yeah but you can manage the fuel within your cash flow. Difficult to get credit and manage the purchase of a large expensive car. And having two cars is too expensive as well.
        rightbyte 4y ago
        True. The setup kinda requires that you need two cars in the first place.
        jsjohnst 4y ago
        > And having two cars is too expensive as well. Maybe so, but the average American family has about 2 cars. Lots of sources for that, but here’s one from top of search results: https://housegrail.com/how-many-cars-does-the-average-american-own/ https://housegrail.com/how-many-cars-does-the-average-americ...
tzs 4y ago
> The data we have suggests that the battery will retain 80% of its maximum capacity for about as long as the rest of the car is expected to survive. How long is the rest of the car expected to survive? I rarely do long range driving, and my commute was short for years (a couple miles each way) for about a decade before we switched to work from home a couple years before the pandemic, and I'm not interested in travel so my usage is not going to up much when I retire in a few years. I anticipate a need for at most 100k over the rest of my life, which almost certainly will be less than 25 years. Would a current EV be likely be able to handle that with just reasonable maintenance? I'm currently driving a 2006 Honda CR-V that I bought new and could probably reasonably keep driving another 10-15 years. That's what I want out of an EV.

bryanlarsen 4y ago

You're commenting on an article about LFP batteries which have an expected lifespan of about 750,000 kilometers.

iasay 4y ago
When they deliver them and have been on the market for 10 years we have data. Until then it’s vapourware.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Chinese manufacturers have been shipping LFP car batteries for several years now.