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I don't think so. We have our share of shitty people just like any other nations. Misrepresenting them as something that is innate to Russia is just hate speec

by gdy 4y ago

I don't think so. We have our share of shitty people just like any other nations. Misrepresenting them as something that is innate to Russia is just hate speech or propaganda.

smsm42 4y ago
Misrepresenting - sure. Accurately representing - well, I guess it still can be propaganda, but propagating the truth bears no shame. It is interesting though how the defender of Russian culture chooses to wield a Western weapon of "hate speech" accusation. In Russia, "hate speech" would be something that the government does not approve of. Including telling the literal truth - such as calling the war the war - or even saying that patriotism is not kissing the ass of the President (a person got arrested for that, though I don't think they decided to prosecute - that'd be interesting to see them attempt to prove that patriotism actually is just that!)
- gdy 4y ago
  "It is interesting " What exactly is interesting? Hate speech is bad, unless it is directed at Russians and then it is not hate speech but 'accurate representation'? 'In Russia, "hate speech" would be something that the government does not approve of' Not really. 'The motive of political hatred' can be added to the case as an aggravating circumstance, but the charge itself is 'discreditation of Russian army' or 'spreading misinformation'. Not that it makes much difference, since the war began life's got scary in Russia in this respect. 'even saying that patriotism is not kissing the ass of the President' 'a person got arrested for that' Is this what you call 'propagating the truth'? Yuriy Shevchuk said a lot of things during his concert but he was never arrested and the court dismissed charges of administrative misconduct for the lack of substance. The prosecutor is going to try again though, but I hope for a good ending -- Shevchuk has a lot of respect in Russian society.
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    - gdy 4y ago
      Nobody should be violently persecuted unless they have violently hurt other people first and our government quite often disregards human rights. As for gays, our government haven't intervened (at least publicly) when gays reportedly got violently persecuted in Chechnya. Also our government often doesn't notice hate speech towards gays (hello, Milonov) or punishes rather mildly when it does notice. Still, I don't think our government thinks that gays should be violently persecuted, it currently only opposes people going to children and saying that homosexuality is normal. There is a couple of draft laws basically striking out 'children' in the previous sentence, we shall see how things will develop.
      - DonHopkins 4y ago
        gdy 4y ago
        Have you stopped beating your partner? Let's see if you dodge this question before I answer yours.
        DonHopkins 4y ago
        gdy 4y ago
        Let's see if you accept my answer as I accepted yours. I don't believe our government thinks that gays should be violently persecuted.
        DonHopkins 4y ago
  - smsm42 4y ago
    The interesting part is a cynical attempt to use a Western culture war weapon in order to promote Russia, which rejects Western values and hates and wants to destroy both sides.
    - gdy 4y ago
      You are quite mistaken. The notion of hate speech is not unique for Western culture. Article 282 in Russian Criminal Codex exists since Eltsin time (1996) and addresses incitement of hatred on racial, religious and ethnic grounds. It itself is based on similar article from Soviet times (1960). In 2003 it was extended by Putin in include hate speech based on gender, language, origin and social stratum. You can read the story here: https://tass.ru/info/5930296 https://tass.ru/info/5930296
      - smsm42 4y ago
        > The notion of hate speech is not unique for Western culture. Of course not. But you are using it as a weapon agains Western culture, trying to trigger it into self-harm. Not because you care about Western values and not promoting hate, but because you see a vulnerability that you could exploit - tell somebody "it's hate speech" and they'd run in panic. Except the trick is now obvious, so it won't work. > Article 282 in Russian Criminal Codex Oh the lovely 282, how we all adore it. Of course totalitarian dictatorship that rules Russia now will suppress speech, and 282 is where it started (now there are more, of course, it never stops). Only then it was "extremist" speech. I don't need to read TASS (blergh! these guys actually kept SS in their name - all you need to know about them, really) to know about 282, thank you very much. But nobody here cares about 282. You can not deploy 282 here to suppress speech you don't like. So you call it "hate speech" instead, hoping to solicit culture war reaction that you know exists in the West and thus avoid discussing the real issues.
        gdy 4y ago
        >But you are using it as a weapon agains Western culture, trying to trigger it into self-harm. That's funny, so now calling out double standards is 'trying to trigger Western culture into self-harm'. Because noticing your own hypocrisy hurts so much, poor you.
moffkalast 4y ago
> propaganda Well you're right, Russia (especially under Putin) has spent a long time presenting itself as the bogeyman of Europe with rampant international threats and assassinations, and now you're surprised people are afraid? That was the whole intention and well congrats, it worked. You don't get to have it both ways so kindly piss off.
- gdy 4y ago
  It seems you are saying 'it's your own fault, we're not responsible, go away' to me. I kindly remind you that the comment I was replied to is saying: 'In Russia, the default mode of answering any complaint is "it's your own fault, we're not responsible, go away"'. The irony.
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    The irony is that by not being able to take the exact same thing you're dishing out and defending, you're confirming the exact same stereotypes you doth protest too much about, methinks. Are you as hateful and violent against gays as your government is?
    - gdy 4y ago
      Sorry, you statement is too vague and I don't understand which 'thing' you mean and where I am 'not able to take the same thing'.
mads_ravn 4y ago
I’m curious: You don’t think that being continuously exposed to government propaganda and threatened with jail/fines for dissenting opinions will increase the frequency of “shitty people”?
- gdy 4y ago
  I don't see how the number of people 'denying responsibility and lying' depends on the exposure to government propaganda saying that Russia is doing good and justified thing right now. If you believe you are right and what is contrary to this belief is only a fake, you don't need to lie and there is no responsibility for something you didn't do.
  - mads_ravn 4y ago
    Then we fundamentally disagree in how human psychology works: I believe that if authorities (be they government officials, parents or others) habitually lie and cheat, then that behavior becomes socially sanctioned as a way to get ahead. Thus you end up with more “shitty people” (and a worse society)
    - gdy 4y ago
      No argument here, but my point is that if you believe lies and don't notice that you are being cheated, it doesn't corrupt you.
      - mads_ravn 4y ago
        Again, I don’t think we are going to end up agreeing as I believe that a significant portion of the Russian people are aware, that they are being lied to, but are to scared to do anything about this. Please also note, that I don’t believe this applied to all Russians. The few I’ve interacted with more closely have been nice (the opposite of “shitty”)
        gdy 4y ago

by gdy 4y ago

I don't think so. We have our share of shitty people just like any other nations. Misrepresenting them as something that is innate to Russia is just hate speech or propaganda.

smsm42 4y ago

Misrepresenting - sure. Accurately representing - well, I guess it still can be propaganda, but propagating the truth bears no shame. It is interesting though how the defender of Russian culture chooses to wield a Western weapon of "hate speech" accusation. In Russia, "hate speech" would be something that the government does not approve of. Including telling the literal truth - such as calling the war the war - or even saying that patriotism is not kissing the ass of the President (a person got arrested for that, though I don't think they decided to prosecute - that'd be interesting to see them attempt to prove that patriotism actually is just that!)

gdy 4y ago
"It is interesting " What exactly is interesting? Hate speech is bad, unless it is directed at Russians and then it is not hate speech but 'accurate representation'? 'In Russia, "hate speech" would be something that the government does not approve of' Not really. 'The motive of political hatred' can be added to the case as an aggravating circumstance, but the charge itself is 'discreditation of Russian army' or 'spreading misinformation'. Not that it makes much difference, since the war began life's got scary in Russia in this respect. 'even saying that patriotism is not kissing the ass of the President' 'a person got arrested for that' Is this what you call 'propagating the truth'? Yuriy Shevchuk said a lot of things during his concert but he was never arrested and the court dismissed charges of administrative misconduct for the lack of substance. The prosecutor is going to try again though, but I hope for a good ending -- Shevchuk has a lot of respect in Russian society.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  - gdy 4y ago
    Nobody should be violently persecuted unless they have violently hurt other people first and our government quite often disregards human rights. As for gays, our government haven't intervened (at least publicly) when gays reportedly got violently persecuted in Chechnya. Also our government often doesn't notice hate speech towards gays (hello, Milonov) or punishes rather mildly when it does notice. Still, I don't think our government thinks that gays should be violently persecuted, it currently only opposes people going to children and saying that homosexuality is normal. There is a couple of draft laws basically striking out 'children' in the previous sentence, we shall see how things will develop.
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      - gdy 4y ago
        Have you stopped beating your partner? Let's see if you dodge this question before I answer yours.
        DonHopkins 4y ago
        gdy 4y ago
        Let's see if you accept my answer as I accepted yours. I don't believe our government thinks that gays should be violently persecuted.
        DonHopkins 4y ago
- smsm42 4y ago
  The interesting part is a cynical attempt to use a Western culture war weapon in order to promote Russia, which rejects Western values and hates and wants to destroy both sides.
  - gdy 4y ago
    You are quite mistaken. The notion of hate speech is not unique for Western culture. Article 282 in Russian Criminal Codex exists since Eltsin time (1996) and addresses incitement of hatred on racial, religious and ethnic grounds. It itself is based on similar article from Soviet times (1960). In 2003 it was extended by Putin in include hate speech based on gender, language, origin and social stratum. You can read the story here: https://tass.ru/info/5930296 https://tass.ru/info/5930296
    - smsm42 4y ago
      > The notion of hate speech is not unique for Western culture. Of course not. But you are using it as a weapon agains Western culture, trying to trigger it into self-harm. Not because you care about Western values and not promoting hate, but because you see a vulnerability that you could exploit - tell somebody "it's hate speech" and they'd run in panic. Except the trick is now obvious, so it won't work. > Article 282 in Russian Criminal Codex Oh the lovely 282, how we all adore it. Of course totalitarian dictatorship that rules Russia now will suppress speech, and 282 is where it started (now there are more, of course, it never stops). Only then it was "extremist" speech. I don't need to read TASS (blergh! these guys actually kept SS in their name - all you need to know about them, really) to know about 282, thank you very much. But nobody here cares about 282. You can not deploy 282 here to suppress speech you don't like. So you call it "hate speech" instead, hoping to solicit culture war reaction that you know exists in the West and thus avoid discussing the real issues.
      - gdy 4y ago
        >But you are using it as a weapon agains Western culture, trying to trigger it into self-harm. That's funny, so now calling out double standards is 'trying to trigger Western culture into self-harm'. Because noticing your own hypocrisy hurts so much, poor you.

moffkalast 4y ago

> propaganda Well you're right, Russia (especially under Putin) has spent a long time presenting itself as the bogeyman of Europe with rampant international threats and assassinations, and now you're surprised people are afraid? That was the whole intention and well congrats, it worked. You don't get to have it both ways so kindly piss off.

gdy 4y ago
It seems you are saying 'it's your own fault, we're not responsible, go away' to me. I kindly remind you that the comment I was replied to is saying: 'In Russia, the default mode of answering any complaint is "it's your own fault, we're not responsible, go away"'. The irony.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  The irony is that by not being able to take the exact same thing you're dishing out and defending, you're confirming the exact same stereotypes you doth protest too much about, methinks. Are you as hateful and violent against gays as your government is?
  - gdy 4y ago
    Sorry, you statement is too vague and I don't understand which 'thing' you mean and where I am 'not able to take the same thing'.

mads_ravn 4y ago

I’m curious: You don’t think that being continuously exposed to government propaganda and threatened with jail/fines for dissenting opinions will increase the frequency of “shitty people”?

gdy 4y ago
I don't see how the number of people 'denying responsibility and lying' depends on the exposure to government propaganda saying that Russia is doing good and justified thing right now. If you believe you are right and what is contrary to this belief is only a fake, you don't need to lie and there is no responsibility for something you didn't do.
- mads_ravn 4y ago
  Then we fundamentally disagree in how human psychology works: I believe that if authorities (be they government officials, parents or others) habitually lie and cheat, then that behavior becomes socially sanctioned as a way to get ahead. Thus you end up with more “shitty people” (and a worse society)
  - gdy 4y ago
    No argument here, but my point is that if you believe lies and don't notice that you are being cheated, it doesn't corrupt you.
    - mads_ravn 4y ago
      Again, I don’t think we are going to end up agreeing as I believe that a significant portion of the Russian people are aware, that they are being lied to, but are to scared to do anything about this. Please also note, that I don’t believe this applied to all Russians. The few I’ve interacted with more closely have been nice (the opposite of “shitty”)
      - gdy 4y ago