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Yeah, free is not a great idea. They should charge fees and subsidize poor people instead. Money to improve quality has to come from somewhere. People rarely

Yeah, free is not a great idea. They should charge fees and subsidize poor people instead. Money to improve quality has to come from somewhere. People rarely choose to use train because it is free.

hetspookjee 4y ago
Here in the Netherlands it’s most often cheaper to go by car. In addition the trains are horrible unreliable and stacked with people so odds of getting a seat are very small. I’m not sure how we got here.
- amrocha 4y ago
  This is such an insane comment. Yes, trains in the Netherlands could be better, but they're still world class. Nothing unreliable about them, and they're definitely not packed. I don't know if you just don't have perspective, or if your comment is a joke and I just didn't get it.
  - TimWillebrands 4y ago
    I think the point would be that even our "world class public transport" kinda sucks. I can visit my parent by bus/train/bus and it'll take at least 3h and longer as soon as one ride is delayed. Or I can take the car and be there in 1.5h.
    - amrocha 4y ago
      And if everyone takes the car it'll take 6 hours instead because of traffic. You can get there faster because everyone else is taking the train. Hopefully one day the train will be the fastest way for you too.
  - pelasaco 4y ago
    I used to think that the Netherlands public transportation sucked in comparison with Germany. The trains were normally "dirty" specially toilets. To commute between cities were normally uncomfortable, specially in the rush hours. Now in 2022 (I was in May in Utrecht, went by train from Germany) and i felt like in paradise.
  - hetspookjee 4y ago
    No my experience is that I sit in the hallway every time I take the train. I often get redirected because there’s something on the trail and or I miss my next train because a few min delay caused the quite tightly planned next train to be missed.
    - TomSwirly 4y ago
      https://analyticsindiamag.com/why-92-6-dutch-trains-arrive-time-the-answer-is-big-data-analytics/ https://analyticsindiamag.com/why-92-6-dutch-trains-arrive-t... "When it comes to punctuality, Dutch railways are in the top three of the world, right behind only Japan and Switzerland. The Dutch railways, also known as NS, have seen an average of one million train commuters every day with 92.6 % of trains arriving on time, an incredible stat for the Dutch railways. If you are from the Netherlands, you probably can’t make the excuse of the train being late anymore. With this level of punctuality, Dutch railways are continually looking for innovative technological ideas to keep its spot in the top three."
- EtienneK 4y ago
  Agreed. Public transport in the Netherlands is way too expensive. And during peak hours you struggle to get space in a train or metro.
  - tinodb 4y ago
    To get space or to be able to sit? It makes sense for there to be so many seats that during rush hours they are all fully used. Having more capacity would be a waste…
- TomSwirly 4y ago
  > In addition the trains are horrible unreliable and stacked with people Hello from Amsterdam! I've lived in five countries, including the Netherlands for the last five+ years. Your statement is so false to the fact that I have no trouble calling it a deliberate lie. First link I found: https://analyticsindiamag.com/why-92-6-dutch-trains-arrive-time-the-answer-is-big-data-analytics/ https://analyticsindiamag.com/why-92-6-dutch-trains-arrive-t... "When it comes to punctuality, Dutch railways are in the top three of the world, right behind only Japan and Switzerland. The Dutch railways, also known as NS, have seen an average of one million train commuters every day with 92.6 % of trains arriving on time, an incredible stat for the Dutch railways. If you are from the Netherlands, you probably can’t make the excuse of the train being late anymore. With this level of punctuality, Dutch railways are continually looking for innovative technological ideas to keep its spot in the top three." All of this is well-known. I think the reddit term for "telling lies to push car ownership" is "carbrain". You should be ashamed of yourself. Really. Do you have nothing better to do than go out and tell the most transparent lies on the Internet?
  - erichocean 4y ago
    > Dutch railways are in the top three of the world You're missing the point: even a "top three" railway kinda sucks compare to point-to-point car usage.
- WildGreenLeave 4y ago
  If it is cheaper to go by car, that depends on how you compare it. If you travel 1 day a month, the train will almost certainly be cheaper because you don't have to buy the car and pay the taxes. If you travel a lot, a car _might_ be cheaper, but even then I doubt it. Don't forget that unlimited train travel in The Netherlands is roughly 380 euros. Is it extremely expensive? Yes. But depending on how often you travel through the country, it might be cheaper than a car. Secondly, I complain about NS a lot about delays and about not being able to sit. I am not going to argue that it isn't a problem that has to be improved. During rush hour (and plenty of times, outside) it is sometimes impossible to find a seat. But, horrible unreliable? that is not how I would call it. Along with that, don't forget that our train system is extremely busy. For example, the trains that go from Amsterdam Zuid to Schiphol is the 7th busiest station in the country and it has only 4 lines, all of them which are almost constantly in use. The moment anything goes wrong, that has a domino effect on all other trains. Personally, I own a car and I use it quite a lot. But I also use public transport quite a lot. For point to point travel outside of cities a car is a no brainer, if you stay within the cities, it is probably not worth it to have a car. Finally I want to point out that our train system has problems, it has delays quite often, there aren't enough seats, and it is expensive. These are all things that we really have to improve. But It is nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be.
LightG 4y ago
I'm not sure that's true. Does it matter where the money comes from? I think what gets missed is the market signal or imperative to respond to that signal. But then, I'll make the uninformed assertion that private rail companies aren't that good at that anyway, and/or the industry doesn't lend itself well to that. And if rail was "free" I'd definitely use it more. It's not necessarily about the money, although that matters, it's the freedom to "just go" (ignoring there'd probably still need to be a booking system due to high demand)
- pelasaco 4y ago
  What people tend to forget is that "free" normally means, no way to hire as many employees are necessary, no way to pay what they want or need, no way to keep the infrastructure or expand it. As usual in everything involving Government, Free would mean more expensive with a lower quality than now.
  - LightG 4y ago
    Generally, I agree. My gut says the rail system is a special case. You cannot have 10 companies competing on the same stretch of rail, which leads to weird attempts to bring the 'market' into play. I'm thinking of the UK in particular.
    - pelasaco 4y ago
      fair point. But I think having the ticket 1 euro/day (365 euros/year), as in Austria, and investing the 2.5 billion Euro in the infrastructure itself (improving trains, hiring and training employees, increasing the offer) would be much better than making it simply "almost free"

Yeah, free is not a great idea. They should charge fees and subsidize poor people instead. Money to improve quality has to come from somewhere. People rarely choose to use train because it is free.

hetspookjee 4y ago

Here in the Netherlands it’s most often cheaper to go by car. In addition the trains are horrible unreliable and stacked with people so odds of getting a seat are very small. I’m not sure how we got here.

amrocha 4y ago
This is such an insane comment. Yes, trains in the Netherlands could be better, but they're still world class. Nothing unreliable about them, and they're definitely not packed. I don't know if you just don't have perspective, or if your comment is a joke and I just didn't get it.
- TimWillebrands 4y ago
  I think the point would be that even our "world class public transport" kinda sucks. I can visit my parent by bus/train/bus and it'll take at least 3h and longer as soon as one ride is delayed. Or I can take the car and be there in 1.5h.
  - amrocha 4y ago
    And if everyone takes the car it'll take 6 hours instead because of traffic. You can get there faster because everyone else is taking the train. Hopefully one day the train will be the fastest way for you too.
- pelasaco 4y ago
  I used to think that the Netherlands public transportation sucked in comparison with Germany. The trains were normally "dirty" specially toilets. To commute between cities were normally uncomfortable, specially in the rush hours. Now in 2022 (I was in May in Utrecht, went by train from Germany) and i felt like in paradise.
- hetspookjee 4y ago
  No my experience is that I sit in the hallway every time I take the train. I often get redirected because there’s something on the trail and or I miss my next train because a few min delay caused the quite tightly planned next train to be missed.
  - TomSwirly 4y ago
    https://analyticsindiamag.com/why-92-6-dutch-trains-arrive-time-the-answer-is-big-data-analytics/ https://analyticsindiamag.com/why-92-6-dutch-trains-arrive-t... "When it comes to punctuality, Dutch railways are in the top three of the world, right behind only Japan and Switzerland. The Dutch railways, also known as NS, have seen an average of one million train commuters every day with 92.6 % of trains arriving on time, an incredible stat for the Dutch railways. If you are from the Netherlands, you probably can’t make the excuse of the train being late anymore. With this level of punctuality, Dutch railways are continually looking for innovative technological ideas to keep its spot in the top three."
EtienneK 4y ago
Agreed. Public transport in the Netherlands is way too expensive. And during peak hours you struggle to get space in a train or metro.
- tinodb 4y ago
  To get space or to be able to sit? It makes sense for there to be so many seats that during rush hours they are all fully used. Having more capacity would be a waste…
TomSwirly 4y ago
> In addition the trains are horrible unreliable and stacked with people Hello from Amsterdam! I've lived in five countries, including the Netherlands for the last five+ years. Your statement is so false to the fact that I have no trouble calling it a deliberate lie. First link I found: https://analyticsindiamag.com/why-92-6-dutch-trains-arrive-time-the-answer-is-big-data-analytics/ https://analyticsindiamag.com/why-92-6-dutch-trains-arrive-t... "When it comes to punctuality, Dutch railways are in the top three of the world, right behind only Japan and Switzerland. The Dutch railways, also known as NS, have seen an average of one million train commuters every day with 92.6 % of trains arriving on time, an incredible stat for the Dutch railways. If you are from the Netherlands, you probably can’t make the excuse of the train being late anymore. With this level of punctuality, Dutch railways are continually looking for innovative technological ideas to keep its spot in the top three." All of this is well-known. I think the reddit term for "telling lies to push car ownership" is "carbrain". You should be ashamed of yourself. Really. Do you have nothing better to do than go out and tell the most transparent lies on the Internet?
- erichocean 4y ago
  > Dutch railways are in the top three of the world You're missing the point: even a "top three" railway kinda sucks compare to point-to-point car usage.
WildGreenLeave 4y ago
If it is cheaper to go by car, that depends on how you compare it. If you travel 1 day a month, the train will almost certainly be cheaper because you don't have to buy the car and pay the taxes. If you travel a lot, a car _might_ be cheaper, but even then I doubt it. Don't forget that unlimited train travel in The Netherlands is roughly 380 euros. Is it extremely expensive? Yes. But depending on how often you travel through the country, it might be cheaper than a car. Secondly, I complain about NS a lot about delays and about not being able to sit. I am not going to argue that it isn't a problem that has to be improved. During rush hour (and plenty of times, outside) it is sometimes impossible to find a seat. But, horrible unreliable? that is not how I would call it. Along with that, don't forget that our train system is extremely busy. For example, the trains that go from Amsterdam Zuid to Schiphol is the 7th busiest station in the country and it has only 4 lines, all of them which are almost constantly in use. The moment anything goes wrong, that has a domino effect on all other trains. Personally, I own a car and I use it quite a lot. But I also use public transport quite a lot. For point to point travel outside of cities a car is a no brainer, if you stay within the cities, it is probably not worth it to have a car. Finally I want to point out that our train system has problems, it has delays quite often, there aren't enough seats, and it is expensive. These are all things that we really have to improve. But It is nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be.

LightG 4y ago

I'm not sure that's true. Does it matter where the money comes from? I think what gets missed is the market signal or imperative to respond to that signal. But then, I'll make the uninformed assertion that private rail companies aren't that good at that anyway, and/or the industry doesn't lend itself well to that. And if rail was "free" I'd definitely use it more. It's not necessarily about the money, although that matters, it's the freedom to "just go" (ignoring there'd probably still need to be a booking system due to high demand)

pelasaco 4y ago
What people tend to forget is that "free" normally means, no way to hire as many employees are necessary, no way to pay what they want or need, no way to keep the infrastructure or expand it. As usual in everything involving Government, Free would mean more expensive with a lower quality than now.
- LightG 4y ago
  Generally, I agree. My gut says the rail system is a special case. You cannot have 10 companies competing on the same stretch of rail, which leads to weird attempts to bring the 'market' into play. I'm thinking of the UK in particular.
  - pelasaco 4y ago
    fair point. But I think having the ticket 1 euro/day (365 euros/year), as in Austria, and investing the 2.5 billion Euro in the infrastructure itself (improving trains, hiring and training employees, increasing the offer) would be much better than making it simply "almost free"