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I’m an Apple fan and let me roll my eyes. This is nonsense. For the sake of argument, let’s assume Apple’s latest laptops have thoroughly wiped the floor again

I’m an Apple fan and let me roll my eyes. This is nonsense. For the sake of argument, let’s assume Apple’s latest laptops have thoroughly wiped the floor against PCs. If that’s the case, Apple’s computers are in a completely different class. You now have ARM machines that run macOS and x86 machines that run any other operating system. Thus, if you’re looking for an x86 machine, you’re not buying an Apple product. This isn’t some inconvenient truth. If you include macs in a PC review… there isn’t any point. You’d be comparing apples with oranges. Yes. I wrote this entire comment to make that joke. :)

duxup 4y ago
I don’t get it. A product is significantly better… don’t compare it to, competitors?
- fartcannon 4y ago
  It's a competitor in the same sense my smart fridge is a competitor. It's a locked down appliance that I'd have to hack to do what I want with.
  - jitl 4y ago
    What hacking is needed to get a Mac to do what you want?
  - duxup 4y ago
    Compared to what? Is that what reviewers are comparing?
  - Spivak 4y ago
    Cool? I mean sure, if when you're picking out a computer it's because you're going to run some variant of Linux/BSD on it then yeah, that's relevant. Or if you have specific Software needs that only run on Windows, macOS, or Linux then that's the decision made. But if you're just looking for a general purpose computer then they're absolutely competitors since the list of popular software that's macos/windows exclusive is small. And if the argument is "well if you don't have high-performance needs and you're just <pejorative about what people use computers for> then why does it matter" the answer is because the battery life is incredible and the thing is unbelievably snappy and responsive.
    - fartcannon 4y ago
      Yeah, that battery life and fan noise. The PR around apple products is hilarious.
      - Spivak 4y ago
        Didn’t know that “how fast it is and how long I can use it” weren’t even worth talking about with a computer. Should I choose my laptop based on how many USB ports it has? Maybe how many rgb lights it comes with?
        fartcannon 4y ago
        Oh definitely USB ports is more important than fan noise. About on part with battery life. For me though, the primary thing I look for is whether or not I can do with it what I want. More specifically, whether the company that made it is actively trying to prevent me from doing that. I care about that stuff most of all. I realize I am one of a very few people though. :)
II2II 4y ago
It depends upon your target market. For many people, an Apple computer is a PC. They run the same, or very similar, applications to get the same job done. Very few computer users are going to care if that PC is based upon ARM or x86. The only reason why most computer users care about the operating system is due to application support, familiarity of the user interface, or perceived reliability. For various reasons, I am firmly in the x86 camp. On the other hand, there is a very good reason to compare apples to oranges: for a good number of people a fruit is a fruit, but the flavour still matters. Then there are the oddballs who used to install oranges into apples to get the best of both worlds. (Historical tid-bit, Orange Micro used to make PC compatibility cards for Macintosh computers.)
- gnicholas 4y ago
  Exactly. My brother was recently shopping for two devices, and he considered Mac laptops, iPads, Windows laptops, Windows tablets, and Chromebooks. For him, it was just a question of what would allow his family to (1) watch TV, (2), surf the web, (3) do email, and (4) back up other devices. In the end he got one iPad and one MBA, though he seriously considered Windows alternatives.
  - II2II 4y ago
    I am just going to add that Apple computers are fine for many people who are looking to create, rather than to consume and communicate. It has the industry standard office productivity suite, graphics design and publishing software, software development tools, and much more. The reason why I bring this up is because we sometimes have the tendency to paint Apple products as having very little value outside of casual/home uses. The reality is that they are actually fairly powerful tools. They won't fill every niche as tools, but that has more to do with the size of the user base in various markets.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      s/Apple/Linux s/home/server Whoa, it's like we're in 2008 again!
- deleted 4y ago
Gigachad 4y ago
I'm not buying an ARM laptop or an x86 laptop, I'm buying a laptop that lets me get work done. Both types do the work I need, the Apple one currently does it nicer at a good price point. If the x86 laptops start doing it better than I'd pick one of those.
- kyriakos 4y ago
  This is the correct approach. You buy what gives the best value for money and allows you to run the software you need. Fan boyism is not universal, most people outside tech just buy what they need regardless whose cpu is inside.
- giomasce 4y ago
  This means that you will need another comparison, if any. For other people it totally makes sense to restrict the comparison to products where you can install the operating system you want.
  - mmcnl 4y ago
    For a very small niche. 99% of customers don't care. They want a laptop that runs Spotify, Chrome, Outlook, Slack, VS Code, etc.
mmcnl 4y ago
Your reasoning is starting with the wrong premise. As if people are looking for x86 or ARM machines. I would rather say people are in the market for something to write their thesis on, write some code or do creative work. MacBooks and Windows/Intel laptops can do this both. There is no apples to oranges comparison. The separation of MacBooks and Windows/Intel laptops based on a chipset or OS is completely arbitrary and opinionated.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  > The separation of MacBooks and Windows/Intel laptops based on a chipset or OS is completely arbitrary and opinionated. There's a reasonable line to draw between consumer and professional needs, but this isn't it. The average person probably won't notice the difference when they're web browsing or futzing in Photoshop, but they're definitely going to notice when none of their Steam games install and the program their boss sent them won't run. The average laptop customer obviously isn't going to look for a specific ISA. However, they're definitely going to notice when those old Flash games won't boot, their code from 2 years ago doesn't compile or their Photoshop plugins break when switching Macs. That's the Apple Silicon problem.
  - mmcnl 4y ago
    That puts Apple silicon at a disadvantage, not in a different class of computing.
    - Brian_K_White 4y ago
      It is literally a different class, and not a disadvantage because there are both advantages and disadvantages. But when deciding, the decision between an XPS, X1, and Surface, is different from the decision between a Surface, Mac, and Chromebook. They all have superficially overlapping facilities, they can all display web pages, they can all "run apps", but in fact they are 3 entirely distinct platforms, and you have to know which platform you want, or which platform will serve your needs, as an entirely seperate and distinct question before thequestion of different pieces of hardware within that platform. Those different platforms, are literally exactly different classes.
cassianoleal 4y ago
> You now have ARM machines that run macOS and x86 machines that run any other operating system. Not necessarily. You can run Linux on Apple Silicon today. Asahi is far from complete, missing lots of drivers and with other sharp corners, but it's been a better experience than I've had with most x86 laptops I've tried. What works works, the machine is stable, fast (even for some graphical applications despite the lack of GPU drivers!) and the battery life is great. Apparently you can run some form of BSD on it as well but I have no idea how far the support is. > Thus, if you’re looking for an x86 machine, you’re not buying an Apple product. Perhaps, but I don't think a lot of people out there actually care about the underlying architecture unless they're developing architecture-specific stuff.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

duxup 4y ago

I don’t get it. A product is significantly better… don’t compare it to, competitors?

fartcannon 4y ago
It's a competitor in the same sense my smart fridge is a competitor. It's a locked down appliance that I'd have to hack to do what I want with.
- jitl 4y ago
  What hacking is needed to get a Mac to do what you want?
- duxup 4y ago
  Compared to what? Is that what reviewers are comparing?
- Spivak 4y ago
  Cool? I mean sure, if when you're picking out a computer it's because you're going to run some variant of Linux/BSD on it then yeah, that's relevant. Or if you have specific Software needs that only run on Windows, macOS, or Linux then that's the decision made. But if you're just looking for a general purpose computer then they're absolutely competitors since the list of popular software that's macos/windows exclusive is small. And if the argument is "well if you don't have high-performance needs and you're just <pejorative about what people use computers for> then why does it matter" the answer is because the battery life is incredible and the thing is unbelievably snappy and responsive.
  - fartcannon 4y ago
    Yeah, that battery life and fan noise. The PR around apple products is hilarious.
    - Spivak 4y ago
      Didn’t know that “how fast it is and how long I can use it” weren’t even worth talking about with a computer. Should I choose my laptop based on how many USB ports it has? Maybe how many rgb lights it comes with?
      - fartcannon 4y ago
        Oh definitely USB ports is more important than fan noise. About on part with battery life. For me though, the primary thing I look for is whether or not I can do with it what I want. More specifically, whether the company that made it is actively trying to prevent me from doing that. I care about that stuff most of all. I realize I am one of a very few people though. :)

II2II 4y ago

It depends upon your target market. For many people, an Apple computer is a PC. They run the same, or very similar, applications to get the same job done. Very few computer users are going to care if that PC is based upon ARM or x86. The only reason why most computer users care about the operating system is due to application support, familiarity of the user interface, or perceived reliability. For various reasons, I am firmly in the x86 camp. On the other hand, there is a very good reason to compare apples to oranges: for a good number of people a fruit is a fruit, but the flavour still matters. Then there are the oddballs who used to install oranges into apples to get the best of both worlds. (Historical tid-bit, Orange Micro used to make PC compatibility cards for Macintosh computers.)

gnicholas 4y ago
Exactly. My brother was recently shopping for two devices, and he considered Mac laptops, iPads, Windows laptops, Windows tablets, and Chromebooks. For him, it was just a question of what would allow his family to (1) watch TV, (2), surf the web, (3) do email, and (4) back up other devices. In the end he got one iPad and one MBA, though he seriously considered Windows alternatives.
- II2II 4y ago
  I am just going to add that Apple computers are fine for many people who are looking to create, rather than to consume and communicate. It has the industry standard office productivity suite, graphics design and publishing software, software development tools, and much more. The reason why I bring this up is because we sometimes have the tendency to paint Apple products as having very little value outside of casual/home uses. The reality is that they are actually fairly powerful tools. They won't fill every niche as tools, but that has more to do with the size of the user base in various markets.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    s/Apple/Linux s/home/server Whoa, it's like we're in 2008 again!
deleted 4y ago

Gigachad 4y ago

I'm not buying an ARM laptop or an x86 laptop, I'm buying a laptop that lets me get work done. Both types do the work I need, the Apple one currently does it nicer at a good price point. If the x86 laptops start doing it better than I'd pick one of those.

kyriakos 4y ago
This is the correct approach. You buy what gives the best value for money and allows you to run the software you need. Fan boyism is not universal, most people outside tech just buy what they need regardless whose cpu is inside.
giomasce 4y ago
This means that you will need another comparison, if any. For other people it totally makes sense to restrict the comparison to products where you can install the operating system you want.
- mmcnl 4y ago
  For a very small niche. 99% of customers don't care. They want a laptop that runs Spotify, Chrome, Outlook, Slack, VS Code, etc.

mmcnl 4y ago

Your reasoning is starting with the wrong premise. As if people are looking for x86 or ARM machines. I would rather say people are in the market for something to write their thesis on, write some code or do creative work. MacBooks and Windows/Intel laptops can do this both. There is no apples to oranges comparison. The separation of MacBooks and Windows/Intel laptops based on a chipset or OS is completely arbitrary and opinionated.

smoldesu 4y ago
> The separation of MacBooks and Windows/Intel laptops based on a chipset or OS is completely arbitrary and opinionated. There's a reasonable line to draw between consumer and professional needs, but this isn't it. The average person probably won't notice the difference when they're web browsing or futzing in Photoshop, but they're definitely going to notice when none of their Steam games install and the program their boss sent them won't run. The average laptop customer obviously isn't going to look for a specific ISA. However, they're definitely going to notice when those old Flash games won't boot, their code from 2 years ago doesn't compile or their Photoshop plugins break when switching Macs. That's the Apple Silicon problem.
- mmcnl 4y ago
  That puts Apple silicon at a disadvantage, not in a different class of computing.
  - Brian_K_White 4y ago
    It is literally a different class, and not a disadvantage because there are both advantages and disadvantages. But when deciding, the decision between an XPS, X1, and Surface, is different from the decision between a Surface, Mac, and Chromebook. They all have superficially overlapping facilities, they can all display web pages, they can all "run apps", but in fact they are 3 entirely distinct platforms, and you have to know which platform you want, or which platform will serve your needs, as an entirely seperate and distinct question before thequestion of different pieces of hardware within that platform. Those different platforms, are literally exactly different classes.

cassianoleal 4y ago

> You now have ARM machines that run macOS and x86 machines that run any other operating system. Not necessarily. You can run Linux on Apple Silicon today. Asahi is far from complete, missing lots of drivers and with other sharp corners, but it's been a better experience than I've had with most x86 laptops I've tried. What works works, the machine is stable, fast (even for some graphical applications despite the lack of GPU drivers!) and the battery life is great. Apparently you can run some form of BSD on it as well but I have no idea how far the support is. > Thus, if you’re looking for an x86 machine, you’re not buying an Apple product. Perhaps, but I don't think a lot of people out there actually care about the underlying architecture unless they're developing architecture-specific stuff.

deleted 4y ago

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