4 ms·

Very good post. I am a dual citizen of the United States and Italy, and though I grew up in America and consider myself culturally more American than Italian, I

Very good post. I am a dual citizen of the United States and Italy, and though I grew up in America and consider myself culturally more American than Italian, I lived, studied and worked (as a developer) in Italy. It's difficult to describe the situation to an outsider, but I found Italy a beautiful place to live but a frustrating and difficult place to work. 1) Italian bureaucracy is maddening. Simple things that take five minutes in America, like getting residency in a state or setting up a bank account can take days if not weeks or months. 2) Taxes and rent are absurdly high compared to wages. I had a great job--and compared to my Italian born peers it really was--that earned 2,600Euro a month. My one bedroom apartment cost 1,400 Euro + 400 euro for utilities and taxes (and utilities is where you get taxed into oblivion). 3) Nepotism and "serving your own." True to what the article mentions, to get my job I had to go through 4-5 rounds of interviews. When I was chosen over the two other Italian candidates, they were blown away. How could they chose this foreigner over them? It didn't matter I was a better programmer, or an Italian citizen, or that I spoke Italian. I was American and they were Italian -- how could the employer possibly chosen me? 4) A cultural tolerance for being corrupt or sly and getting away with it. I'm generalizing some here, but I feel this to be true for the most part. And, to those who speak Italian (sorry could not find the clip with subtitles), this is a wonderful scene related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8TZNxWixN8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8TZNxWixN8

phatbyte 15y ago
I completely agree with you, even if I'm from Portugal I understand it perfectly. For instance, in order to get my SSN in portugal it took around 1-2 weeks. On the other hand, in the US I got my EIN in 5 minutes online.
_delirium 15y ago
On #2, €1800/mo rent including utilities sounds pretty absurd! Is that in a particularly desirable city center, or with some unusual arrangement (e.g. furnished short-term rentals?). The Italians I know here in Copenhagen have mentioned rent prices closer to €700-900 for a 1-bd back in Italy, when complaining about how expensive Copenhagen is in comparison (€1800 would even be high for Copenhagen, though; it's more like €1000-1300 here).
- toyg 15y ago
  It really depends which part of the country we're talking about. Some cities (Milan, Rome, Bologna, anywhere in Tuscany) are incredibly expensive.
- bdesimone 15y ago
  I lived one of the below mentioned expensive cities.
antirez 15y ago
I agree that rents are high compared to the average earning, but different places have different costs. For instance I live near Catania (it is not really Catania but very close, where half of the people that work in Catania live, in the little towns in the Etna side), and I pay 450 euros per month for an 80 square meters house (not very big but mid-size for here), with even furnitures and so forth. Catania is not Milano and here we are in Sicily, but on the other side this is among the most costly places in Sicily, and at 10 Km from where I live there are tens of gyms, 1 Apple Store, a few very big cinemas and plenty of commercial centers and so forth. Btw here there are a great number of programers, surely not less programmers than in the rest of Italy in average. So the question could be, what is blocking the south where costs are much more reasonable from entering the startups business? I guess that cultural factors have the most weight...

phatbyte 15y ago

I completely agree with you, even if I'm from Portugal I understand it perfectly. For instance, in order to get my SSN in portugal it took around 1-2 weeks. On the other hand, in the US I got my EIN in 5 minutes online.

_delirium 15y ago

On #2, €1800/mo rent including utilities sounds pretty absurd! Is that in a particularly desirable city center, or with some unusual arrangement (e.g. furnished short-term rentals?). The Italians I know here in Copenhagen have mentioned rent prices closer to €700-900 for a 1-bd back in Italy, when complaining about how expensive Copenhagen is in comparison (€1800 would even be high for Copenhagen, though; it's more like €1000-1300 here).

toyg 15y ago
It really depends which part of the country we're talking about. Some cities (Milan, Rome, Bologna, anywhere in Tuscany) are incredibly expensive.
bdesimone 15y ago
I lived one of the below mentioned expensive cities.

antirez 15y ago

I agree that rents are high compared to the average earning, but different places have different costs. For instance I live near Catania (it is not really Catania but very close, where half of the people that work in Catania live, in the little towns in the Etna side), and I pay 450 euros per month for an 80 square meters house (not very big but mid-size for here), with even furnitures and so forth. Catania is not Milano and here we are in Sicily, but on the other side this is among the most costly places in Sicily, and at 10 Km from where I live there are tens of gyms, 1 Apple Store, a few very big cinemas and plenty of commercial centers and so forth. Btw here there are a great number of programers, surely not less programmers than in the rest of Italy in average. So the question could be, what is blocking the south where costs are much more reasonable from entering the startups business? I guess that cultural factors have the most weight...