4 ms·

> In France such lunacy is unthinkable because they have freedom from religion So by banning modest clothing and mandating mixed sex bathing, French women are

> In France such lunacy is unthinkable because they have freedom from religion So by banning modest clothing and mandating mixed sex bathing, French women are "free" from having to see or accept the existence of Muslim women, whereas Muslim women are "free" to abandon their beliefs about modesty or not enjoy the bathhouses their taxes paid for. That reminds me of a quote by Anatole France, who happens to have been French, and who wrote: “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/361132-the-law-in-its-majestic-equality-forbids-rich-and-poor https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/361132-the-law-in-its-majes...

AinderS 4y ago
I can't say I agree with the banning of modest clothing (nor, for that matter, with calling all clothing that does not abide by Sharia rules "immodest"), but mandating mixed sex bathing seems very reasonable. You just have to phrase it a little differently - banning segregated bathing. Or do you think French law should tolerate, for example, race-segregated bathing? If not, why should sex-segregation be treated different?
- zarzavat 4y ago
  Perhaps France should have thought about that before it colonised a third of Africa and the Middle East. The presence of Muslims in France is a direct result of France opting to spread its language and culture throughout places inhabited by Muslims, the least they could do is adjust the hours of their bathhouses to accommodate those people's beliefs.
  - AinderS 4y ago
    No, it is a direct consequence of their recent immigration policy. How else do you explain that the Muslim population in France started growing [1] only after their colonial empire had almost vanished [2]? This is a logic only ever applied to European empires, and to believe it, one must be entirely ignorant of the existence of other empires. Imperial Japan, the Mongolian Empire, Ottoman Empire and Muslim conquests in general (What is today called 'Europe' is mainly defined by what Muslims failed to conquer, or did conquer but subsequently lost, such as the entirety of Spain) managed to spread and take territory without their homelands turning multicultural. For example, Byzantium (now called Istanbul) used to be almost entirely Christian. And the colonization of much of Eastern Europe by the Ottomans was not accompanied by any growth of Christianity or East European populations in Turkey. Quite the opposite - it was the Muslim population in Eastern Europe that grew. [1] The share of Arabic first names increased from 1% to 18% since the 1960s - https://www.valeursactuelles.com/societe/la-part-des-prenoms-arabes-passee-de-1-a-18-depuis-les-annees-1960/ https://www.valeursactuelles.com/societe/la-part-des-prenoms... [2] By the 1960s, says Robert Aldrich, the last "vestiges of empire held little interest for the French. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_colonial_empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_colonial_empire
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      >without their homelands turning multicultural Can you unpack this?
      - AinderS 4y ago
        It's a simple statement of fact, disproving by example the parent's claim that France's growing diversity is caused by having had colonies. But that didn't need unpacking - it is simply a summary of the conversation. So I don't understand what you want "unpacked". Does citing counter-evidence require "unpacking" now?
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  Let me turn the question around: Do you think that France should allow sex-segregated changing rooms, and sex-segregated swimming competitions?
belter 4y ago
Strange way to talk about the supposed Muslim women belief of modesty. In what implies that non Muslim women would not be modest...Did those teachings come from a non-existent feminine Ulama? In fact the excess garments of many Muslim women are dictated by Muslim men edicts. And at the end, has nothing to do with Religious beliefs, but instead cultural conditioning.
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  Yes, I apologise. I should perhaps have added an asterisk next to "modest" with the explanation "at least from the perspective of some of the women who choose to dress that way (and some of them only have that perspective because men have taught it to them and they don't have much opportunity to challenge those ideas)". Still, I think that a steelmanned version of my comment could be valid, so hopefully you can look past my "strange" way of talking. As for your comment about religious beliefs versus cultural practices(?), I'm not sure how decisive that is. Should a French school refuse to offer a vegetarian meal to a student if they are vegetarian for cultural reasons rather than religious reasons? Or perhaps vice versa, out of an over-zealous desire to enforce secularism? And then what about non-religious ethical beliefs that differ from those of the majority?
  - type0 4y ago
    > offer a vegetarian meal to a student if they are vegetarian for cultural reasons rather than religious reasons? Or perhaps vice versa, out of an over-zealous desire to enforce secularism? Yes they should definitely offer a fruitarian meal to everyone and pesca-pescaterian specifically to me

AinderS 4y ago

I can't say I agree with the banning of modest clothing (nor, for that matter, with calling all clothing that does not abide by Sharia rules "immodest"), but mandating mixed sex bathing seems very reasonable. You just have to phrase it a little differently - banning segregated bathing. Or do you think French law should tolerate, for example, race-segregated bathing? If not, why should sex-segregation be treated different?

zarzavat 4y ago
Perhaps France should have thought about that before it colonised a third of Africa and the Middle East. The presence of Muslims in France is a direct result of France opting to spread its language and culture throughout places inhabited by Muslims, the least they could do is adjust the hours of their bathhouses to accommodate those people's beliefs.
- AinderS 4y ago
  No, it is a direct consequence of their recent immigration policy. How else do you explain that the Muslim population in France started growing [1] only after their colonial empire had almost vanished [2]? This is a logic only ever applied to European empires, and to believe it, one must be entirely ignorant of the existence of other empires. Imperial Japan, the Mongolian Empire, Ottoman Empire and Muslim conquests in general (What is today called 'Europe' is mainly defined by what Muslims failed to conquer, or did conquer but subsequently lost, such as the entirety of Spain) managed to spread and take territory without their homelands turning multicultural. For example, Byzantium (now called Istanbul) used to be almost entirely Christian. And the colonization of much of Eastern Europe by the Ottomans was not accompanied by any growth of Christianity or East European populations in Turkey. Quite the opposite - it was the Muslim population in Eastern Europe that grew. [1] The share of Arabic first names increased from 1% to 18% since the 1960s - https://www.valeursactuelles.com/societe/la-part-des-prenoms-arabes-passee-de-1-a-18-depuis-les-annees-1960/ https://www.valeursactuelles.com/societe/la-part-des-prenoms... [2] By the 1960s, says Robert Aldrich, the last "vestiges of empire held little interest for the French. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_colonial_empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_colonial_empire
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    >without their homelands turning multicultural Can you unpack this?
    - AinderS 4y ago
      It's a simple statement of fact, disproving by example the parent's claim that France's growing diversity is caused by having had colonies. But that didn't need unpacking - it is simply a summary of the conversation. So I don't understand what you want "unpacked". Does citing counter-evidence require "unpacking" now?
dane-pgp 4y ago
Let me turn the question around: Do you think that France should allow sex-segregated changing rooms, and sex-segregated swimming competitions?

belter 4y ago

Strange way to talk about the supposed Muslim women belief of modesty. In what implies that non Muslim women would not be modest...Did those teachings come from a non-existent feminine Ulama? In fact the excess garments of many Muslim women are dictated by Muslim men edicts. And at the end, has nothing to do with Religious beliefs, but instead cultural conditioning.

dane-pgp 4y ago
Yes, I apologise. I should perhaps have added an asterisk next to "modest" with the explanation "at least from the perspective of some of the women who choose to dress that way (and some of them only have that perspective because men have taught it to them and they don't have much opportunity to challenge those ideas)". Still, I think that a steelmanned version of my comment could be valid, so hopefully you can look past my "strange" way of talking. As for your comment about religious beliefs versus cultural practices(?), I'm not sure how decisive that is. Should a French school refuse to offer a vegetarian meal to a student if they are vegetarian for cultural reasons rather than religious reasons? Or perhaps vice versa, out of an over-zealous desire to enforce secularism? And then what about non-religious ethical beliefs that differ from those of the majority?
- type0 4y ago
  > offer a vegetarian meal to a student if they are vegetarian for cultural reasons rather than religious reasons? Or perhaps vice versa, out of an over-zealous desire to enforce secularism? Yes they should definitely offer a fruitarian meal to everyone and pesca-pescaterian specifically to me