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As someone who has chosen to get rid of my car and rely on public transport I would say the biggest problem public transport faces is quality and not cost. For

by Joeri 4y ago

As someone who has chosen to get rid of my car and rely on public transport I would say the biggest problem public transport faces is quality and not cost. For people to trade in their cars connections need to be fast, frequent and a comfortable ride. This requires large investments and having high enough fares helps offset those investments. Making it free makes it harder to achieve that level of quality, so while it will sway the most price-conscious group, it would never convince the masses to take a train instead of their car.

baby 4y ago
Just increase taxes for everyone instead of spending a ton of money on trying to catch people not paying their fare or technology to process payment.
cormacrelf 4y ago
If I were a transport operator, I would be worried about losing access to the trip data you get from people constantly scanning their tickets at the start and end of journeys. How do you know how people are using your services if nobody is scanning tickets any more? Maybe counting passengers gives you enough info to deliver capacity at required times. Hopefully the need for data on what actual trips people are taking (to influence line design etc) is not so necessary that operators start doing facial recognition. Yuck.
- robotresearcher 4y ago
  The story says that the goverment will issue free season tickets, not remove ticket scanning.
- coffeeblack 4y ago
  Number of phones trying to connect to the train’s Wi-Fi.
- elashri 4y ago
  In my city, the metro decided that this summer it will be fare-free on weekends. The bus operators count people in their system as they board. This is how they simply track the usage.
- novok 4y ago
  You don't need image recognition to count passengers, there are other sensor types that could detect bodies. Or you could get rid of the facial recognition parts and just focus and record body shapes, explicitly avoiding trying to track or identify individuals.
  - cormacrelf 4y ago
    You missed the distinction between counting passengers on a platform or in a bus, and figuring out what people are using public transport for. “When people get on at this stop, how far do they travel? Are they having to sit on trains for 2 hours or do they only go a few stops? Should we draw a new line here or there?” That’s a different question from “how many trains do we need to dedicate to this line between 8 and 9am on a Thursday?” which can be answered by counting. You can kinda guess with the numbers only, but many paid transport systems have had near perfect info on this their entire service lives. It would be weird to lose it.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      > many paid transport systems have had near perfect info on this their entire service lives. Only if they were entirely built in the last decade and a half. During the hundred years before that, nobody was tracking riders with anything approaching that type of precision, and public transportation was better.
    - indecisive_user 4y ago
      >When people get on at this stop, how far do they travel? Very few systems that I've ridden on in the US track this kind of information. Most of the time you buy a one way ticket and ride for however many stops you want. There's no tracking for when people get off.
    - cyphar 4y ago
      > You can kinda guess with the numbers only, but many paid transport systems have had near perfect info on this their entire service lives. It would be weird to lose it. This level of indiscriminate surveillance is absolutely abnormal from a historical perspective -- it's "weird" they have it in the first place! There's no reason to think that it's necessary. (And since most public transport systems are at least partially government run, and your travel card is associated either implicitly or explicitly with your real identity, travel cards have become an excellent way for the government to surveil every member of the public indiscriminately, allowing for retroactive surveillance -- though of course rubber-stamp courts would give them access to this information from private companies too.) Most public transport systems have not had access to this information for the vast majority of their existence (and managed to botch expansions just as well as they can today with the benefit of all this data) and have only gained access (along with law enforcement) to it recently. The issues with increasing public transport coverage is not a lack of data, it's a lack of funding and interest.
- weaksauce 4y ago
  you could always use the guy collecting tickets to collect that information. or use turnstiles. or a myriad other ways.
- atq2119 4y ago
  Operators occasionally run surveys where I live. This is useful anyway because you really want additional information that you'll never be able to get otherwise, like "what's the purpose of your trip?" or "how did you get to the station and how long did it take you?".
- aorloff 4y ago
  This could be done with Bluetooth or wifi sensors if you just need aggregate data
  - throw0101a 4y ago
    This is how (some?) travel time system work: > Travel Time Systems work through the analysis of collected traffic data. This data can be collected via cellular providers, GPS vendors, mobile app vendors and most popularly through Bluetooth and Wi-Fi Scanning. Bluetooth and Wi-Fi scanning technology makes use of non-intrusive roadside sensors to detect the unique addresses of the Bluetooth and Wi-Fi radios inside of driver's vehicle and smartphone. By picking up a unique radio ID at one sensor location and then another these systems are able to calculate the travel time experienced from sensor A to sensor B for that unique vehicle/driver. These systems collect and calculate thousands of data points like this in order to determine the average travel time between any two sensors on the road. * https://stinson.ca/its-solutions/bluetooth-wifi-travel-time-systems.html https://stinson.ca/its-solutions/bluetooth-wifi-travel-time-...
- euroclear 4y ago
  In New York, the Staten Island Ferry is free, but you still pass through turnstiles to enter. I assume that that is how they get usage data even though no one needs to buy tickets.
- cesarb 4y ago
  > How do you know how people are using your services if nobody is scanning tickets any more? The light tram I use often (https://www.vltrio.com.br/ https://www.vltrio.com.br/) has a sensor above each door which counts how many passengers get in and out of the vehicle at each stop (the payment is done within the vehicle through NFC card readers near each door; the count from the door sensors allows estimating the amount of fare evasion). So these kinds of sensor do exist, and don't need facial recognition to do their job (this particular one wouldn't be able to do facial recognition even if it wanted to, due to its placement looking straight down). (The presence of these sensors on that particular tram line isn't well known, so it's a bit hard to find more information; a quick web search found https://www.semanadetecnologia.com.br/25semana/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/T11_ID64_artigo_vltevasaoemsistemaabertos.pdf https://www.semanadetecnologia.com.br/25semana/wp-content/up... which has on its page 4 some sample images from these sensors, plus photos of the NFC readers).
- HWR_14 4y ago
  Give everyone NFC cards to use the system but don't charge them?
  - R0b0t1 4y ago
    Yeah, or have them still need to "buy" tickets and redeem them/scan them to get on.
- kjkjadksj 4y ago
  Depends on the transit agency. LA metro fare collection rate is probably 50% based on what I see. As others say the door sensors are the more reliable measure than the tap machine. Some train stations don’t have turnstyles and the ones that do don’t have the emergency gates alarmed anymore because people triggered them so much to avoid having to hurdle the turnstyle.
- _ph_ 4y ago
  The funny thing is: in German public transit there is no ticket scanning. You have to stamp single use tickets in rather old stamping machines, so no data collection there other than the count of stamps. Any longer time-ticket isn't scanned or stamped per travel anyway. Not sure whether they use the camera systems these days for this purpose, but in older times they would do statistical counting, e.g. have people (often students) ride certain trains and collect passenger counts.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
    That isn't universal. There are places which have no stamping machines anymore. Because any ticket, be it bought at a ticket machine, or the driver, already is "stamped". There may be some leftover installs in older vehicles, on lend from somewhere, or occassional use out of the "Verkehrsverbund", to be lended elsewhere, but they are getting rare. I actually can't remember when I've last seen them.
scoofy 4y ago
I will push back there. Automobiles rarely pay the cost for their transportation infrastructure. Some of the roads are good, some are bad, some are congested some are clear. The populations adjust their life around the infrastructure not the other way around. Since the streets are already free, for public transit to compete in any way, it also ought to be free... we should expect people to adjust to ideal public transit living locations for the exact same reason.
- ketzo 4y ago
  Well, the streets aren't free, because you need to buy a car to use them. That's a little pedantic, but I think it's super relevant. The problem is that as a passenger/consumer, with a car, it's very easy to decide how much to pay for my own personal level of ride quality. I can spend $2k on an old Camry, or I can spend $200k on a Bentley, but either way, I have almost total control (potholes notwithstanding). It's really not possible to have that kind of personal control when you're looking at public transit.
  - llukas 4y ago
    You can spend $200k on Bentley and still have nowhere to park it at your destination.
    - eganist 4y ago
      > You can spend $200k on Bentley and still have nowhere to park it at your destination. If you can't bring yourself to solve your parking situation after spending 200k on a Bentley, you spent too much on the Bentley. To this day, I've never seen a Valet Full sign.
    - kjkjadksj 4y ago
      If you are spending $200k for a Bentley someone else is parking your car at the destination
  - robotresearcher 4y ago
    Fare classes exist on trains. Less granular than picking your own car, but still some choice. Some long distance trains you can pay for a private cabin with decent meal service, or just a single seat and access to a vending machine.
javajosh 4y ago
>the biggest problem public transport faces is quality and not cost There is an interesting, very American, solution, which is ubiquitous, active surveillance on every form of public transport. Not just for violent threats, but for enforcing (current) vandalism, littering, and even assault laws cheaply and at scale. For the low low cost of a dystopian panopticon you could have, theoretically, a cheaply maintained public transportation system. (The other option, which many other countries employ, is a rigorous culture of respect for public places and public facilities -- for example Japan and Northern Europe.)
- majormajor 4y ago
  That does nothing for trip times, added walking distances, or convenience of transit (e.g. how easy are connections). You're replying to a post that mentioned "fast, frequent" first as their measure of quality.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nsgi 4y ago
  How would this work? As a Brit, I can say having a lot of CCTV definitely doesn't stop littering
monksy 4y ago
As someone who has dealt with Lightfoot's destruction of the CTA. (Well not so much as destruction as much as intentional neglect and lying about it over a long period of time) I completely agree with this. CTA used to be mostly reliable and good. Now, there are serious questions as far as to trust it to go out drinking or using it for everyday commuting for work. As a result our roads have become chaotic to drive on.
- leaflets2 4y ago
  What is CTA? It's Lightfoot Lori Lightfoot?
  - JasonHarrison 4y ago
    My guess would be the Chicago Transit Authority.
  - monksy 4y ago
    CTA = Chicago Transit Authority Lightfoot = The Trump like mayor that we have (She's a democrat but still thinks she can just bully her way through making deals)
nicoburns 4y ago
Where do you live? I live in the UK and I'd argue that's not true here.
kstenerud 4y ago
It worked in Germany. Peak rush hour traffic is down everywhere. Plus the German trains, trams and subways don't smell like urine, or make horrible screeching noises like BART.
- pelasaco 4y ago
  It didn't work in Germany. You have the impression that it worked because people are in holidays [1]. The trains are mostly overcrowded, partially working and the work force is burned out[2]. TL;DR: "The Transport Ministry is providing €2.5 billion over three months to compensate for the loss of revenue caused by the artificially low ticket price — and yet no money was made available for extra personnel, buses or trains." With that in mind, he does not see how the scheme can feasibly continue after August. At least not at €9 per ticket." References: [1] https://berlinspectator.com/2022/07/02/germany-summer-vacations-to-start-with-major-chaos-at-airports/ https://berlinspectator.com/2022/07/02/germany-summer-vacati... [2] https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-9-euro-travel-ticket-success-or-failure/a-62329405 https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-9-euro-travel-ticket-success-...
  - kstenerud 4y ago
    So they learned on their first iteration how to do it better. Honestly, it's like everyone is desperately searching for that dark cloud of desapair... Point is, it reduced automobile use by a significant amount because people do prefer to use the train when the price is right. Which means that with appropriate subsidies you can seriously improve the existing transport infrastructure. 10B a year is a pittance compared to the good it would do - Especially with the looming energy crunch.
    - pelasaco 4y ago
      No they didn't learn about the iteration. Actually they learned, that the populism cannot be sustained (the plan should be named 90 euro ticket 1 euro/day, but for populism they "removed one zero"), again, they borrowed our money to be able to follow a populist agenda, but the Federal government said already that they won't be able to keep up with that: with a ridiculous excuse: "It is not a federal issue, but the federal states are responsible for that" https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/nachfolgemodell-neun-euro-ticket-103.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/nachfolgemodell-neun-euro-t... The results until now: 3/4 of the people still driving their cars: https://www.focus.de/auto/news/ergebnis-ueberrascht-umfrage-so-viele-autofahrer-steigen-wegen-9-euro-ticket-auf-bus-und-bahn-um_id_107940619.html https://www.focus.de/auto/news/ergebnis-ueberrascht-umfrage-.... So 2.5 billion euros (actually much more, see https://www.stern.de/panorama/-9-euro-ticket-macht-krank----sorge-ueber-zustand-der-deutschen-bahn-32548908.html https://www.stern.de/panorama/-9-euro-ticket-macht-krank----...) is the most expensive "almost free" train ticket in the world...
Consultant32452 4y ago
I've used public transportation in NYC, Chicago, and LA. Even with my minimal use of such services during vacations my bar for trading in my car would be extreme enforcement to remove the homeless/drug addicts/etc that make the experience feel unsafe. I feel like free use would exacerbate that problem.
- jakelazaroff 4y ago
  The intended beneficiary of public transportation is, well, the public. That includes people whose presence might make you uncomfortable. Those people exist, and they have the same right to use the system that you do. This is fundamentally an issue that law enforcement cannot solve. Also, for what it's worth: as someone who uses the NYC subway extensively, it does not feel unsafe.
  - Consultant32452 4y ago
    I have no problem with anyone "using" the system for its intended purpose: to get from point A to point B. That is not what I'm referring to at all and you know it.
    - jakelazaroff 4y ago
      Unhoused people are only “misusing” the system because the broader system has failed them. And their presence isn’t hurting anyone. I have very little patience for wanting a state paramilitary force to violently remove others for the crime of reminding them that not everyone has a bed to sleep in at night.
      - Consultant32452 4y ago
        I don't want to argue with you or change your mind. I will just never submit to your shitty public transportation conditions.
ergocoder 4y ago
Yeah, free is not a great idea. They should charge fees and subsidize poor people instead. Money to improve quality has to come from somewhere. People rarely choose to use train because it is free.
- hetspookjee 4y ago
  Here in the Netherlands it’s most often cheaper to go by car. In addition the trains are horrible unreliable and stacked with people so odds of getting a seat are very small. I’m not sure how we got here.
  - amrocha 4y ago
    This is such an insane comment. Yes, trains in the Netherlands could be better, but they're still world class. Nothing unreliable about them, and they're definitely not packed. I don't know if you just don't have perspective, or if your comment is a joke and I just didn't get it.
    - TimWillebrands 4y ago
      I think the point would be that even our "world class public transport" kinda sucks. I can visit my parent by bus/train/bus and it'll take at least 3h and longer as soon as one ride is delayed. Or I can take the car and be there in 1.5h.
      - amrocha 4y ago
        And if everyone takes the car it'll take 6 hours instead because of traffic. You can get there faster because everyone else is taking the train. Hopefully one day the train will be the fastest way for you too.
    - pelasaco 4y ago
      I used to think that the Netherlands public transportation sucked in comparison with Germany. The trains were normally "dirty" specially toilets. To commute between cities were normally uncomfortable, specially in the rush hours. Now in 2022 (I was in May in Utrecht, went by train from Germany) and i felt like in paradise.
avereveard 4y ago
Interconnections too. I have had to keep a car around because even if the train can comfortably take me to my family's city, I would then need a bus to the bus central and from there a bus to the specific suburb. Point two, I've now a daughter, and in a car I can stop whenever she needs, find comfortable places to fix whatever the issue is, and resume journey.
TomSwirly 4y ago
> This requires large investments and having high enough fares helps offset those investments. Does not follow! I have a beautiful bridge ten minutes bike ride from my house. This was a significant investment by the municipality. It would not be improved by being a toll route. Right now the city is digging up the street in front of my apartment in order to completely redo electricity, plumbing, sewers and telecom. This task would not be improved by our block having to pay for it. Public goods are not an "investment" because they bring in revenue. If you're a hard-core capitalist, you believe that they are an investment because they dramatically facilitate profitable businesses with very low friction. Other people believe that public goods like bridges, roads, transportation, schools and parks are an intrinsic good in and of themselves because they make everyone's lives better. The only economic case for user fees is to deliberately throttle a scarce resource. But given the climate emergency, all our societies should be building public transportation as quickly as humanly possible. The reason to expect money to change hands is not economic - it's purely the moral idea that everything has to involve money.

by Joeri 4y ago

baby 4y ago

Just increase taxes for everyone instead of spending a ton of money on trying to catch people not paying their fare or technology to process payment.

cormacrelf 4y ago

If I were a transport operator, I would be worried about losing access to the trip data you get from people constantly scanning their tickets at the start and end of journeys. How do you know how people are using your services if nobody is scanning tickets any more? Maybe counting passengers gives you enough info to deliver capacity at required times. Hopefully the need for data on what actual trips people are taking (to influence line design etc) is not so necessary that operators start doing facial recognition. Yuck.

robotresearcher 4y ago
The story says that the goverment will issue free season tickets, not remove ticket scanning.
coffeeblack 4y ago
Number of phones trying to connect to the train’s Wi-Fi.
elashri 4y ago
In my city, the metro decided that this summer it will be fare-free on weekends. The bus operators count people in their system as they board. This is how they simply track the usage.
novok 4y ago
You don't need image recognition to count passengers, there are other sensor types that could detect bodies. Or you could get rid of the facial recognition parts and just focus and record body shapes, explicitly avoiding trying to track or identify individuals.
- cormacrelf 4y ago
  You missed the distinction between counting passengers on a platform or in a bus, and figuring out what people are using public transport for. “When people get on at this stop, how far do they travel? Are they having to sit on trains for 2 hours or do they only go a few stops? Should we draw a new line here or there?” That’s a different question from “how many trains do we need to dedicate to this line between 8 and 9am on a Thursday?” which can be answered by counting. You can kinda guess with the numbers only, but many paid transport systems have had near perfect info on this their entire service lives. It would be weird to lose it.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > many paid transport systems have had near perfect info on this their entire service lives. Only if they were entirely built in the last decade and a half. During the hundred years before that, nobody was tracking riders with anything approaching that type of precision, and public transportation was better.
  - indecisive_user 4y ago
    >When people get on at this stop, how far do they travel? Very few systems that I've ridden on in the US track this kind of information. Most of the time you buy a one way ticket and ride for however many stops you want. There's no tracking for when people get off.
  - cyphar 4y ago
    > You can kinda guess with the numbers only, but many paid transport systems have had near perfect info on this their entire service lives. It would be weird to lose it. This level of indiscriminate surveillance is absolutely abnormal from a historical perspective -- it's "weird" they have it in the first place! There's no reason to think that it's necessary. (And since most public transport systems are at least partially government run, and your travel card is associated either implicitly or explicitly with your real identity, travel cards have become an excellent way for the government to surveil every member of the public indiscriminately, allowing for retroactive surveillance -- though of course rubber-stamp courts would give them access to this information from private companies too.) Most public transport systems have not had access to this information for the vast majority of their existence (and managed to botch expansions just as well as they can today with the benefit of all this data) and have only gained access (along with law enforcement) to it recently. The issues with increasing public transport coverage is not a lack of data, it's a lack of funding and interest.
weaksauce 4y ago
you could always use the guy collecting tickets to collect that information. or use turnstiles. or a myriad other ways.
atq2119 4y ago
Operators occasionally run surveys where I live. This is useful anyway because you really want additional information that you'll never be able to get otherwise, like "what's the purpose of your trip?" or "how did you get to the station and how long did it take you?".
aorloff 4y ago
This could be done with Bluetooth or wifi sensors if you just need aggregate data
- throw0101a 4y ago
  This is how (some?) travel time system work: > Travel Time Systems work through the analysis of collected traffic data. This data can be collected via cellular providers, GPS vendors, mobile app vendors and most popularly through Bluetooth and Wi-Fi Scanning. Bluetooth and Wi-Fi scanning technology makes use of non-intrusive roadside sensors to detect the unique addresses of the Bluetooth and Wi-Fi radios inside of driver's vehicle and smartphone. By picking up a unique radio ID at one sensor location and then another these systems are able to calculate the travel time experienced from sensor A to sensor B for that unique vehicle/driver. These systems collect and calculate thousands of data points like this in order to determine the average travel time between any two sensors on the road. * https://stinson.ca/its-solutions/bluetooth-wifi-travel-time-systems.html https://stinson.ca/its-solutions/bluetooth-wifi-travel-time-...
euroclear 4y ago
In New York, the Staten Island Ferry is free, but you still pass through turnstiles to enter. I assume that that is how they get usage data even though no one needs to buy tickets.
cesarb 4y ago
> How do you know how people are using your services if nobody is scanning tickets any more? The light tram I use often (https://www.vltrio.com.br/ https://www.vltrio.com.br/) has a sensor above each door which counts how many passengers get in and out of the vehicle at each stop (the payment is done within the vehicle through NFC card readers near each door; the count from the door sensors allows estimating the amount of fare evasion). So these kinds of sensor do exist, and don't need facial recognition to do their job (this particular one wouldn't be able to do facial recognition even if it wanted to, due to its placement looking straight down). (The presence of these sensors on that particular tram line isn't well known, so it's a bit hard to find more information; a quick web search found https://www.semanadetecnologia.com.br/25semana/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/T11_ID64_artigo_vltevasaoemsistemaabertos.pdf https://www.semanadetecnologia.com.br/25semana/wp-content/up... which has on its page 4 some sample images from these sensors, plus photos of the NFC readers).
HWR_14 4y ago
Give everyone NFC cards to use the system but don't charge them?
- R0b0t1 4y ago
  Yeah, or have them still need to "buy" tickets and redeem them/scan them to get on.
kjkjadksj 4y ago
Depends on the transit agency. LA metro fare collection rate is probably 50% based on what I see. As others say the door sensors are the more reliable measure than the tap machine. Some train stations don’t have turnstyles and the ones that do don’t have the emergency gates alarmed anymore because people triggered them so much to avoid having to hurdle the turnstyle.
_ph_ 4y ago
The funny thing is: in German public transit there is no ticket scanning. You have to stamp single use tickets in rather old stamping machines, so no data collection there other than the count of stamps. Any longer time-ticket isn't scanned or stamped per travel anyway. Not sure whether they use the camera systems these days for this purpose, but in older times they would do statistical counting, e.g. have people (often students) ride certain trains and collect passenger counts.
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
  That isn't universal. There are places which have no stamping machines anymore. Because any ticket, be it bought at a ticket machine, or the driver, already is "stamped". There may be some leftover installs in older vehicles, on lend from somewhere, or occassional use out of the "Verkehrsverbund", to be lended elsewhere, but they are getting rare. I actually can't remember when I've last seen them.

scoofy 4y ago

I will push back there. Automobiles rarely pay the cost for their transportation infrastructure. Some of the roads are good, some are bad, some are congested some are clear. The populations adjust their life around the infrastructure not the other way around. Since the streets are already free, for public transit to compete in any way, it also ought to be free... we should expect people to adjust to ideal public transit living locations for the exact same reason.

ketzo 4y ago
Well, the streets aren't free, because you need to buy a car to use them. That's a little pedantic, but I think it's super relevant. The problem is that as a passenger/consumer, with a car, it's very easy to decide how much to pay for my own personal level of ride quality. I can spend $2k on an old Camry, or I can spend $200k on a Bentley, but either way, I have almost total control (potholes notwithstanding). It's really not possible to have that kind of personal control when you're looking at public transit.
- llukas 4y ago
  You can spend $200k on Bentley and still have nowhere to park it at your destination.
  - eganist 4y ago
    > You can spend $200k on Bentley and still have nowhere to park it at your destination. If you can't bring yourself to solve your parking situation after spending 200k on a Bentley, you spent too much on the Bentley. To this day, I've never seen a Valet Full sign.
  - kjkjadksj 4y ago
    If you are spending $200k for a Bentley someone else is parking your car at the destination
- robotresearcher 4y ago
  Fare classes exist on trains. Less granular than picking your own car, but still some choice. Some long distance trains you can pay for a private cabin with decent meal service, or just a single seat and access to a vending machine.

javajosh 4y ago

>the biggest problem public transport faces is quality and not cost There is an interesting, very American, solution, which is ubiquitous, active surveillance on every form of public transport. Not just for violent threats, but for enforcing (current) vandalism, littering, and even assault laws cheaply and at scale. For the low low cost of a dystopian panopticon you could have, theoretically, a cheaply maintained public transportation system. (The other option, which many other countries employ, is a rigorous culture of respect for public places and public facilities -- for example Japan and Northern Europe.)

majormajor 4y ago
That does nothing for trip times, added walking distances, or convenience of transit (e.g. how easy are connections). You're replying to a post that mentioned "fast, frequent" first as their measure of quality.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nsgi 4y ago
How would this work? As a Brit, I can say having a lot of CCTV definitely doesn't stop littering

monksy 4y ago

As someone who has dealt with Lightfoot's destruction of the CTA. (Well not so much as destruction as much as intentional neglect and lying about it over a long period of time) I completely agree with this. CTA used to be mostly reliable and good. Now, there are serious questions as far as to trust it to go out drinking or using it for everyday commuting for work. As a result our roads have become chaotic to drive on.

leaflets2 4y ago
What is CTA? It's Lightfoot Lori Lightfoot?
- JasonHarrison 4y ago
  My guess would be the Chicago Transit Authority.
- monksy 4y ago
  CTA = Chicago Transit Authority Lightfoot = The Trump like mayor that we have (She's a democrat but still thinks she can just bully her way through making deals)

nicoburns 4y ago

Where do you live? I live in the UK and I'd argue that's not true here.

kstenerud 4y ago

It worked in Germany. Peak rush hour traffic is down everywhere. Plus the German trains, trams and subways don't smell like urine, or make horrible screeching noises like BART.

pelasaco 4y ago
It didn't work in Germany. You have the impression that it worked because people are in holidays [1]. The trains are mostly overcrowded, partially working and the work force is burned out[2]. TL;DR: "The Transport Ministry is providing €2.5 billion over three months to compensate for the loss of revenue caused by the artificially low ticket price — and yet no money was made available for extra personnel, buses or trains." With that in mind, he does not see how the scheme can feasibly continue after August. At least not at €9 per ticket." References: [1] https://berlinspectator.com/2022/07/02/germany-summer-vacations-to-start-with-major-chaos-at-airports/ https://berlinspectator.com/2022/07/02/germany-summer-vacati... [2] https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-9-euro-travel-ticket-success-or-failure/a-62329405 https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-9-euro-travel-ticket-success-...
- kstenerud 4y ago
  So they learned on their first iteration how to do it better. Honestly, it's like everyone is desperately searching for that dark cloud of desapair... Point is, it reduced automobile use by a significant amount because people do prefer to use the train when the price is right. Which means that with appropriate subsidies you can seriously improve the existing transport infrastructure. 10B a year is a pittance compared to the good it would do - Especially with the looming energy crunch.
  - pelasaco 4y ago
    No they didn't learn about the iteration. Actually they learned, that the populism cannot be sustained (the plan should be named 90 euro ticket 1 euro/day, but for populism they "removed one zero"), again, they borrowed our money to be able to follow a populist agenda, but the Federal government said already that they won't be able to keep up with that: with a ridiculous excuse: "It is not a federal issue, but the federal states are responsible for that" https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/nachfolgemodell-neun-euro-ticket-103.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/nachfolgemodell-neun-euro-t... The results until now: 3/4 of the people still driving their cars: https://www.focus.de/auto/news/ergebnis-ueberrascht-umfrage-so-viele-autofahrer-steigen-wegen-9-euro-ticket-auf-bus-und-bahn-um_id_107940619.html https://www.focus.de/auto/news/ergebnis-ueberrascht-umfrage-.... So 2.5 billion euros (actually much more, see https://www.stern.de/panorama/-9-euro-ticket-macht-krank----sorge-ueber-zustand-der-deutschen-bahn-32548908.html https://www.stern.de/panorama/-9-euro-ticket-macht-krank----...) is the most expensive "almost free" train ticket in the world...

Consultant32452 4y ago

I've used public transportation in NYC, Chicago, and LA. Even with my minimal use of such services during vacations my bar for trading in my car would be extreme enforcement to remove the homeless/drug addicts/etc that make the experience feel unsafe. I feel like free use would exacerbate that problem.

jakelazaroff 4y ago
The intended beneficiary of public transportation is, well, the public. That includes people whose presence might make you uncomfortable. Those people exist, and they have the same right to use the system that you do. This is fundamentally an issue that law enforcement cannot solve. Also, for what it's worth: as someone who uses the NYC subway extensively, it does not feel unsafe.
- Consultant32452 4y ago
  I have no problem with anyone "using" the system for its intended purpose: to get from point A to point B. That is not what I'm referring to at all and you know it.
  - jakelazaroff 4y ago
    Unhoused people are only “misusing” the system because the broader system has failed them. And their presence isn’t hurting anyone. I have very little patience for wanting a state paramilitary force to violently remove others for the crime of reminding them that not everyone has a bed to sleep in at night.
    - Consultant32452 4y ago
      I don't want to argue with you or change your mind. I will just never submit to your shitty public transportation conditions.

ergocoder 4y ago

Yeah, free is not a great idea. They should charge fees and subsidize poor people instead. Money to improve quality has to come from somewhere. People rarely choose to use train because it is free.

hetspookjee 4y ago
Here in the Netherlands it’s most often cheaper to go by car. In addition the trains are horrible unreliable and stacked with people so odds of getting a seat are very small. I’m not sure how we got here.
- amrocha 4y ago
  This is such an insane comment. Yes, trains in the Netherlands could be better, but they're still world class. Nothing unreliable about them, and they're definitely not packed. I don't know if you just don't have perspective, or if your comment is a joke and I just didn't get it.
  - TimWillebrands 4y ago
    I think the point would be that even our "world class public transport" kinda sucks. I can visit my parent by bus/train/bus and it'll take at least 3h and longer as soon as one ride is delayed. Or I can take the car and be there in 1.5h.
    - amrocha 4y ago
      And if everyone takes the car it'll take 6 hours instead because of traffic. You can get there faster because everyone else is taking the train. Hopefully one day the train will be the fastest way for you too.
  - pelasaco 4y ago
    I used to think that the Netherlands public transportation sucked in comparison with Germany. The trains were normally "dirty" specially toilets. To commute between cities were normally uncomfortable, specially in the rush hours. Now in 2022 (I was in May in Utrecht, went by train from Germany) and i felt like in paradise.

avereveard 4y ago

Interconnections too. I have had to keep a car around because even if the train can comfortably take me to my family's city, I would then need a bus to the bus central and from there a bus to the specific suburb. Point two, I've now a daughter, and in a car I can stop whenever she needs, find comfortable places to fix whatever the issue is, and resume journey.

TomSwirly 4y ago

> This requires large investments and having high enough fares helps offset those investments. Does not follow! I have a beautiful bridge ten minutes bike ride from my house. This was a significant investment by the municipality. It would not be improved by being a toll route. Right now the city is digging up the street in front of my apartment in order to completely redo electricity, plumbing, sewers and telecom. This task would not be improved by our block having to pay for it. Public goods are not an "investment" because they bring in revenue. If you're a hard-core capitalist, you believe that they are an investment because they dramatically facilitate profitable businesses with very low friction. Other people believe that public goods like bridges, roads, transportation, schools and parks are an intrinsic good in and of themselves because they make everyone's lives better. The only economic case for user fees is to deliberately throttle a scarce resource. But given the climate emergency, all our societies should be building public transportation as quickly as humanly possible. The reason to expect money to change hands is not economic - it's purely the moral idea that everything has to involve money.