12 ms·

That is true, esp with Michael Saylors comment about mortgage your house to buy buy BTC…I am pro BTC, but that is utterly horrible advice. That is indeed burie

by dadoge 4y ago

That is true, esp with Michael Saylors comment about mortgage your house to buy buy BTC…I am pro BTC, but that is utterly horrible advice. That is indeed buried relative to many other points

hammyhavoc 4y ago
Yep. Know an elderly couple that did exactly this, and so did their friends. It is shockingly common. They were all exploited. Someone should be held accountable.
- bagacrap 4y ago
  ...really? what were they hoping to gain? By the time you're elderly I feel like you should understand that there's no such thing as low risk high reward investing.
  - hammyhavoc 4y ago
    To beat inflation. Simple as that. Interest rates aren't moving in line with the rate of inflation, ergo running out of money before they croak becomes something to be concerned by, thus most folks make investments in retirement to compensate for this. Lots of folks online saying that crypto is the only way to beat inflation. We both know that's bullshit, but with so many people huffing the laughing gas, it's easy to get taken in, especially with influencers and the Crypto.com Stadium et al.
    - dehrmann 4y ago
      I like this thought and buy the motivation, but why not stocks?
      - hammyhavoc 4y ago
        Stocks aren't anywhere near as hyped, and countries aren't making stocks into legal tender ala Bitcoin, and Chivo. Not that I'm advocating for any of this BTW. It just seems like a perfect storm of massive hype, a lot of very convincing marketing, and the wind blowing in the right direction between a pandemic, Brexit, war, and a possible recession. When desperate, and many big names are involved, it can obviously look quite seductive. Used to work in this predatory niche about 7 years ago. Never again.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    I heavily disagree with this. My generation's elderly people cannot read nor write. Of my one grandparent who can read, they have an 8th grade education. Only a minority of 60+ people were literate worldwide, much less financially literate. This also applies to my parents' generation, who grew up primarily subsistence farmers. They don't understand finances or markets or anything like crypto. They understand business investment as mutual actions of trust, where they lend their neighbor money and their neighbor buys something to benefit the town. Cryptocurrency hijacks those avenues of business investments by forming parasocial bonds and fake communities.
    - hammyhavoc 4y ago
      If I could underline your comment repeatedly, I would. We take our access to knowledge for granted.
    - Animats 4y ago
      "They understand business investment as mutual actions of trust, where they lend their neighbor money and their neighbor buys something to benefit the town. Cryptocurrency hijacks those avenues of business investments by forming parasocial bonds and fake communities." Exactly. The crypto promoters built a community, acted trustworthy, and then they exploited it for an affinity scam.[1] The promoters gave the impression they were on your side. They weren't. Just like Madoff. [1] https://www.sec.gov/investor/pubs/affinity https://www.sec.gov/investor/pubs/affinity
- oarabbus_ 4y ago
  Was there some form of coercion involved? How is taking a loan against your home to gamble on risky, speculative assets the fault of someone else? If someone borrows against their home to try to double their money in stock trading or the casinos, were they exploited by Wall Street or Las Vegas?
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > If someone borrows against their home to try to double their money in stock trading or the casinos, were they exploited by Wall Street or Las Vegas? Actually, yes. There are laws regulating loans for the purchase of securities. Most jurisdiction ban lending for gambling.
    - oarabbus_ 4y ago
      1. Citation needed - which jurisdictions? This is certainly not true in the USA where you can use home equity for investment purposes multiple ways via HELOC, equity loan, or cash-out refi. Additionally, brokerages themselves offer margin, and margin investing/trading is a loan. 2. This doesn't address the point of where the coercion was involved to make this "exploitation". [0] https://www.lendingtree.com/home/home-equity/home-equity-investment/#:~:text=Yes%2C%20you%20can%20use%20your,a%20variety%20of%20financial%20uses https://www.lendingtree.com/home/home-equity/home-equity-inv.... [1]https://www.thebalance.com/can-i-invest-in-stocks-with-a-home-equity-loan-5324194 https://www.thebalance.com/can-i-invest-in-stocks-with-a-hom...
      - dahdum 4y ago
        Non-purpose loans like SBLOC aren't allowed to be used to purchase or carry securities. I believe HELOC usually don't carry that restriction, so it would be legal. Probably a terrible idea, but legal.
    - dahdum 4y ago
      > Actually, yes. There are laws regulating loans for the purchase of securities. Most jurisdiction ban lending for gambling. How is Wall Street exploiting them in this case? It sounds like they are committing some sort of fraud (perhaps even criminal?) against the lender by breaking the terms the loan by investing in speculative assets.
- drexlspivey 4y ago
  This attitude led to attestations like “accredited investors” that locked anyone but the top 3-4% out of private markets where the majority of wealth creation is happening
  - dehrmann 4y ago
    I'm not convinced a lot of opportunities open to accredited investors are that good. 2 and 20 takes a lot out of your returns.
foogazi 4y ago
But are you owning up to this ?
- dadoge 4y ago
  What do you mean?
  - foogazi 4y ago
    GP wmf stated: > The crypto "community" need to own up to this. Whatever that means

by dadoge 4y ago

That is true, esp with Michael Saylors comment about mortgage your house to buy buy BTC…I am pro BTC, but that is utterly horrible advice. That is indeed buried relative to many other points

hammyhavoc 4y ago

Yep. Know an elderly couple that did exactly this, and so did their friends. It is shockingly common. They were all exploited. Someone should be held accountable.

bagacrap 4y ago
...really? what were they hoping to gain? By the time you're elderly I feel like you should understand that there's no such thing as low risk high reward investing.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  To beat inflation. Simple as that. Interest rates aren't moving in line with the rate of inflation, ergo running out of money before they croak becomes something to be concerned by, thus most folks make investments in retirement to compensate for this. Lots of folks online saying that crypto is the only way to beat inflation. We both know that's bullshit, but with so many people huffing the laughing gas, it's easy to get taken in, especially with influencers and the Crypto.com Stadium et al.
  - dehrmann 4y ago
    I like this thought and buy the motivation, but why not stocks?
    - hammyhavoc 4y ago
      Stocks aren't anywhere near as hyped, and countries aren't making stocks into legal tender ala Bitcoin, and Chivo. Not that I'm advocating for any of this BTW. It just seems like a perfect storm of massive hype, a lot of very convincing marketing, and the wind blowing in the right direction between a pandemic, Brexit, war, and a possible recession. When desperate, and many big names are involved, it can obviously look quite seductive. Used to work in this predatory niche about 7 years ago. Never again.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  I heavily disagree with this. My generation's elderly people cannot read nor write. Of my one grandparent who can read, they have an 8th grade education. Only a minority of 60+ people were literate worldwide, much less financially literate. This also applies to my parents' generation, who grew up primarily subsistence farmers. They don't understand finances or markets or anything like crypto. They understand business investment as mutual actions of trust, where they lend their neighbor money and their neighbor buys something to benefit the town. Cryptocurrency hijacks those avenues of business investments by forming parasocial bonds and fake communities.
  - hammyhavoc 4y ago
    If I could underline your comment repeatedly, I would. We take our access to knowledge for granted.
  - Animats 4y ago
    "They understand business investment as mutual actions of trust, where they lend their neighbor money and their neighbor buys something to benefit the town. Cryptocurrency hijacks those avenues of business investments by forming parasocial bonds and fake communities." Exactly. The crypto promoters built a community, acted trustworthy, and then they exploited it for an affinity scam.[1] The promoters gave the impression they were on your side. They weren't. Just like Madoff. [1] https://www.sec.gov/investor/pubs/affinity https://www.sec.gov/investor/pubs/affinity
oarabbus_ 4y ago
Was there some form of coercion involved? How is taking a loan against your home to gamble on risky, speculative assets the fault of someone else? If someone borrows against their home to try to double their money in stock trading or the casinos, were they exploited by Wall Street or Las Vegas?
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > If someone borrows against their home to try to double their money in stock trading or the casinos, were they exploited by Wall Street or Las Vegas? Actually, yes. There are laws regulating loans for the purchase of securities. Most jurisdiction ban lending for gambling.
  - oarabbus_ 4y ago
    1. Citation needed - which jurisdictions? This is certainly not true in the USA where you can use home equity for investment purposes multiple ways via HELOC, equity loan, or cash-out refi. Additionally, brokerages themselves offer margin, and margin investing/trading is a loan. 2. This doesn't address the point of where the coercion was involved to make this "exploitation". [0] https://www.lendingtree.com/home/home-equity/home-equity-investment/#:~:text=Yes%2C%20you%20can%20use%20your,a%20variety%20of%20financial%20uses https://www.lendingtree.com/home/home-equity/home-equity-inv.... [1]https://www.thebalance.com/can-i-invest-in-stocks-with-a-home-equity-loan-5324194 https://www.thebalance.com/can-i-invest-in-stocks-with-a-hom...
    - dahdum 4y ago
      Non-purpose loans like SBLOC aren't allowed to be used to purchase or carry securities. I believe HELOC usually don't carry that restriction, so it would be legal. Probably a terrible idea, but legal.
  - dahdum 4y ago
    > Actually, yes. There are laws regulating loans for the purchase of securities. Most jurisdiction ban lending for gambling. How is Wall Street exploiting them in this case? It sounds like they are committing some sort of fraud (perhaps even criminal?) against the lender by breaking the terms the loan by investing in speculative assets.
drexlspivey 4y ago
This attitude led to attestations like “accredited investors” that locked anyone but the top 3-4% out of private markets where the majority of wealth creation is happening
- dehrmann 4y ago
  I'm not convinced a lot of opportunities open to accredited investors are that good. 2 and 20 takes a lot out of your returns.

foogazi 4y ago

But are you owning up to this ?

dadoge 4y ago
What do you mean?
- foogazi 4y ago
  GP wmf stated: > The crypto "community" need to own up to this. Whatever that means