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Is this coordinated with the efforts in Netherlands to also reduce the amount of fertilizer use? https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/dutch-farmers-protest-by-

by zosima 4y ago

Is this coordinated with the efforts in Netherlands to also reduce the amount of fertilizer use? https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/dutch-farmers-protest-by-blocking-supermarket-distribution-centres-2022-07-04/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/dutch-farmers-protest-b... And what are the scientific rationales for these policies? It seems evident that food prizes will be adversely affected, and that without artificial fertilizers there is a large risk of starvation in many places.

varispeed 4y ago
Both countries are governed by WEF members and that's just a part of 2030 agenda. They want to bankrupt private farmers and then people like Bill Gates will buy up their farms for peanuts and they will be able to control the population through artificial food scarcity. You know the famous "you vil eet ze bugz" from the WEF mastermind.
- cato_the_elder 4y ago
  I don't think it's that, as we aren't ruled by very competent people capable of such conspiracies. It's just that the western ruling class lives in a bubble in which policies like this seem like a good idea. Their disdain for kulaks [1] probably contributes to their blindness to views outside the bubble. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak
  - GenerocUsername 4y ago
    Eh, just because the rulers are incompetent doesn't exclude the possibility that their actions are coordinated for larger goals... Even if those goals don't go 100% to plan. Look it up. Trudou and the Netherlands leader are both WEF members and both acting in similar ways despite the obvious red flags of doing so.
    - cato_the_elder 4y ago
      I'm assuming you are referring to the WEF "Young Global Leaders". If you look at the members and alumni for that [1], you'll find many politicians who oppose things like this. A relevant example would be Andrew Scheer, the former leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, who opposes even the carbon tax. [2] The thing probably serves a function similar to "honorary" doctorates: it pads the resumes and boosts the egos of politicians, and extends the network of influential people who are friendly towards WEF. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Global_Leaders#Members_and_alumni https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Global_Leaders#Members... [2]: https://globalnews.ca/news/6265202/scheer-vows-to-never-support-carbon-tax-blames-trudeau-for-national-unity-crisis/ https://globalnews.ca/news/6265202/scheer-vows-to-never-supp...
      - varispeed 4y ago
        > A relevant example would be Andrew Scheer, the former leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, who opposes even the carbon tax. [2] I think it has more to do with being a controlled opposition than party affiliation. Here in the UK, Conservative government is dead set on implementing the agenda and they even defenestrated the current PM because he was not competent at delivering it and now the contest for a new PM is run by two WEF members. It's interesting that the most popular candidate among the Conservative members - Kemi Badenoch was eliminated - the fact that she wasn't a WEF member was of course a coincidence.
  - varispeed 4y ago
    I think you are over estimating how smart someone has to be to pull something like that off and under estimating how gullible majority of population is. WEF has been working on this behind the scenes for decades and only now we start to see the effects when all the Young Leaders become Prime Ministers and furnish their cabinets with their fellow WEF members set with the common mission, and now the "once in a lifetime opportunity to change the world" has appeared. Probably the fact that Klaus Schwab is old and wants to see the Grand Finale (or Great Reset if you will) before he goes also plays a part. Other factor is that they themselves may not be competent, but they have money that can buy competent people to get their closer to their goals, however, stupid and destructive these may be.
- JaimeThompson 4y ago
  What percentage of farm land does Bill Gates own?
panarky 4y ago
Are you predicting starvation in Canada? If not, then it seems like lower demand for artificial fertilizers in Canada would increase the supply of the stuff to other nations, thus reducing prices and increasing caloric intake.
- cato_the_elder 4y ago
  Well, fertilizers have diminishing returns, you can't keep adding fertilizer to increase the yield as much as you want. The amount of farmland available globally is limited, so reducing the yields per hectare in one country will probably contribute to food inflation globally. You could increase the amount of available farmland by deforestation, but that would probably be contrary to the goals of environmental conservatism. Also, we are assuming a global free market of crops, which is an unrealistic assumption, as there are lots of subsidies and tariffs.
- dsq 4y ago
  Perhaps Canada itself will hot experience starvation, but an overall fall in calories (and nutrients) produced will put pressure on world food prices.
gardenfelder 4y ago
While not stated in the piece, it's not unlikely that there are other factors involved in the reduction of fertilizers. This is a wildly complex situation: On the one hand, modern agriculture has learned that you can increase crop yields through the use of heavy fertilizers, which lead to decreased soil capabilities, which lead to increased pest issues which lead to increased use of pesticides which leads to... a truly vicious circle, one quite profitable for the likes of monsanto On the other hand, there is an emerging technology which, in the long run, is not emerging at all, but much closer to a return to agriculture's roots - it's known as Regenerative Agriculture - sometimes referred to as "no-til" farming. The idea being that you, quite literally, improve soil's ability to capture and retain carbon - something you give up when you plow the soil - and, from there, you reduce the amount of water needed, improve soil health, and measurably improve crop yields. There's a strong movement in that direction, and several feature-length films. A brief intro is found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6m-XlPnqxI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6m-XlPnqxI
- gardenfelder 4y ago
  Brief update, regenerative ag was mentioned in a nearby HN piece: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32203620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32203620
- knubie 4y ago
  The article specifically mentions that this new regulation does not limit fertilizer use itself, so the motivation seems to be entirely driven by climate change and not soil sustainability.
- loonster 4y ago
  I would feel much more comfortable with subsidizing more sustainable practices than the hard handed approach of forcing a great leap forward.
- 7speter 4y ago
  You seemed to have left out the runoff from fertilizer that can throw ecosystems off, a prominent example are algal blooms
the_third_wave 4y ago
They are not coordinating directly just like e.g. the rise of identity politics in many western nations is not controlled from some central institute. In the case of identity politics (in the vernacular more often called "woke") the ideas are spread through academia from where they percolate into public life. These ideas are part of 'The Great Reset' [1] which is pushed by the World Economic Forum, Klaus Schwab's organisation. Mark Rutte [2] (the prime minister of the Netherlands) is Schwab's personal favourite prime minister, Justin Trudeau [3] is close to Schwab's organisation as well. That these two leaders now attempt to steer their countries in the same direction does not take much coordination other than their shared goal of implementing (parts of) the plans laid out before them. [1] https://www.weforum.org/great-reset https://www.weforum.org/great-reset [2] https://rumble.com/voe3ah-mr-klaus-schwab-follows-every-debate-in-the-house-of-representatives-of-the.html https://rumble.com/voe3ah-mr-klaus-schwab-follows-every-deba... [3] https://www.weforum.org/people/justin-trudeau https://www.weforum.org/people/justin-trudeau

by zosima 4y ago

varispeed 4y ago

Both countries are governed by WEF members and that's just a part of 2030 agenda. They want to bankrupt private farmers and then people like Bill Gates will buy up their farms for peanuts and they will be able to control the population through artificial food scarcity. You know the famous "you vil eet ze bugz" from the WEF mastermind.

cato_the_elder 4y ago
I don't think it's that, as we aren't ruled by very competent people capable of such conspiracies. It's just that the western ruling class lives in a bubble in which policies like this seem like a good idea. Their disdain for kulaks [1] probably contributes to their blindness to views outside the bubble. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak
- GenerocUsername 4y ago
  Eh, just because the rulers are incompetent doesn't exclude the possibility that their actions are coordinated for larger goals... Even if those goals don't go 100% to plan. Look it up. Trudou and the Netherlands leader are both WEF members and both acting in similar ways despite the obvious red flags of doing so.
  - cato_the_elder 4y ago
    I'm assuming you are referring to the WEF "Young Global Leaders". If you look at the members and alumni for that [1], you'll find many politicians who oppose things like this. A relevant example would be Andrew Scheer, the former leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, who opposes even the carbon tax. [2] The thing probably serves a function similar to "honorary" doctorates: it pads the resumes and boosts the egos of politicians, and extends the network of influential people who are friendly towards WEF. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Global_Leaders#Members_and_alumni https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Global_Leaders#Members... [2]: https://globalnews.ca/news/6265202/scheer-vows-to-never-support-carbon-tax-blames-trudeau-for-national-unity-crisis/ https://globalnews.ca/news/6265202/scheer-vows-to-never-supp...
    - varispeed 4y ago
      > A relevant example would be Andrew Scheer, the former leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, who opposes even the carbon tax. [2] I think it has more to do with being a controlled opposition than party affiliation. Here in the UK, Conservative government is dead set on implementing the agenda and they even defenestrated the current PM because he was not competent at delivering it and now the contest for a new PM is run by two WEF members. It's interesting that the most popular candidate among the Conservative members - Kemi Badenoch was eliminated - the fact that she wasn't a WEF member was of course a coincidence.
- varispeed 4y ago
  I think you are over estimating how smart someone has to be to pull something like that off and under estimating how gullible majority of population is. WEF has been working on this behind the scenes for decades and only now we start to see the effects when all the Young Leaders become Prime Ministers and furnish their cabinets with their fellow WEF members set with the common mission, and now the "once in a lifetime opportunity to change the world" has appeared. Probably the fact that Klaus Schwab is old and wants to see the Grand Finale (or Great Reset if you will) before he goes also plays a part. Other factor is that they themselves may not be competent, but they have money that can buy competent people to get their closer to their goals, however, stupid and destructive these may be.
JaimeThompson 4y ago
What percentage of farm land does Bill Gates own?

panarky 4y ago

Are you predicting starvation in Canada? If not, then it seems like lower demand for artificial fertilizers in Canada would increase the supply of the stuff to other nations, thus reducing prices and increasing caloric intake.

cato_the_elder 4y ago
Well, fertilizers have diminishing returns, you can't keep adding fertilizer to increase the yield as much as you want. The amount of farmland available globally is limited, so reducing the yields per hectare in one country will probably contribute to food inflation globally. You could increase the amount of available farmland by deforestation, but that would probably be contrary to the goals of environmental conservatism. Also, we are assuming a global free market of crops, which is an unrealistic assumption, as there are lots of subsidies and tariffs.
dsq 4y ago
Perhaps Canada itself will hot experience starvation, but an overall fall in calories (and nutrients) produced will put pressure on world food prices.

gardenfelder 4y ago

While not stated in the piece, it's not unlikely that there are other factors involved in the reduction of fertilizers. This is a wildly complex situation: On the one hand, modern agriculture has learned that you can increase crop yields through the use of heavy fertilizers, which lead to decreased soil capabilities, which lead to increased pest issues which lead to increased use of pesticides which leads to... a truly vicious circle, one quite profitable for the likes of monsanto On the other hand, there is an emerging technology which, in the long run, is not emerging at all, but much closer to a return to agriculture's roots - it's known as Regenerative Agriculture - sometimes referred to as "no-til" farming. The idea being that you, quite literally, improve soil's ability to capture and retain carbon - something you give up when you plow the soil - and, from there, you reduce the amount of water needed, improve soil health, and measurably improve crop yields. There's a strong movement in that direction, and several feature-length films. A brief intro is found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6m-XlPnqxI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6m-XlPnqxI

gardenfelder 4y ago
Brief update, regenerative ag was mentioned in a nearby HN piece: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32203620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32203620
knubie 4y ago
The article specifically mentions that this new regulation does not limit fertilizer use itself, so the motivation seems to be entirely driven by climate change and not soil sustainability.
loonster 4y ago
I would feel much more comfortable with subsidizing more sustainable practices than the hard handed approach of forcing a great leap forward.
7speter 4y ago
You seemed to have left out the runoff from fertilizer that can throw ecosystems off, a prominent example are algal blooms

the_third_wave 4y ago

They are not coordinating directly just like e.g. the rise of identity politics in many western nations is not controlled from some central institute. In the case of identity politics (in the vernacular more often called "woke") the ideas are spread through academia from where they percolate into public life. These ideas are part of 'The Great Reset' [1] which is pushed by the World Economic Forum, Klaus Schwab's organisation. Mark Rutte [2] (the prime minister of the Netherlands) is Schwab's personal favourite prime minister, Justin Trudeau [3] is close to Schwab's organisation as well. That these two leaders now attempt to steer their countries in the same direction does not take much coordination other than their shared goal of implementing (parts of) the plans laid out before them. [1] https://www.weforum.org/great-reset https://www.weforum.org/great-reset [2] https://rumble.com/voe3ah-mr-klaus-schwab-follows-every-debate-in-the-house-of-representatives-of-the.html https://rumble.com/voe3ah-mr-klaus-schwab-follows-every-deba... [3] https://www.weforum.org/people/justin-trudeau https://www.weforum.org/people/justin-trudeau