5 ms·

The UK is the fifth largest and almost every public service is a complete omnishambles.

by hanoz 4y ago

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
I suggest dealing with the US healthcare system, or try taking public transportation in literally any city in the US and compare it to London.
- bogomipz 4y ago
  Sure, then let's compare NYC to London: The train in NYC runs 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The London Tube stops at midnight. The train in NYC is much much cheaper, it's $2.75 to go anywhere on its almost 400km of track. London's Tube has zone-based pricing. The NYC subway cars are all air-conditioned. The NYC subway cars are far roomier than the Tube. NYCs subway is "cut and cover" and so the stations aren't nearly as deep and quicker to get in and out of.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    Yeah but our trains are filthy and full of derelict and deranged people. I love the Subway but the Tube has a lot going for it.
  - mattlondon 4y ago
    For what it is worth, the tube does not entirely shut at midnight: https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tube-improvements/what-we-are-doing/night-tube https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tube-improvements/what-we-are-do... The equivalent cut-and-cover lines have Aircon and are roomy (they are now also entirely walk-through carriages https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Bombardier_S_Stock_Circle_line_Interior_3.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Bombardi...). The deep-level lines though are often uncooled. Public transport in London is notoriously expensive though it is true. One major failing of the NYC subway in my mind is the near total lack of signage. There is like one map per carriage (which is often hidden behind people standing or sitting), and the platforms have almost no signage or maps or directions. You look out the window to see where you are when you pull into a station and there are no signs. Perhaps there is a single letter initial every 30 meters or so... WTF? At least in London the station name is repeated all the way along the platform (along with route maps and network maps and colour-coded signs to other lines etc), there are like 8 maps in every carriage at above-head-height so you can see it over people etc. The express routes in NYC subway are awesome and I wish London had those
- buzzert 4y ago
  The US healthcare system is not a public service. Nor are the trains in Tokyo.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    The US government spends about as large a percentage of GDP on healthcare as the UK does. It's just that in the US we double-dip for asking the users of healthcare to pay the same amount again.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - rtpg 4y ago
    Many train lines in Japan are funded in a public-private mix. I don't want to overstate this too much, I dislike the JR privatisation (including a part where a lot of the public-era debt ended up in the gov't's hand), and all the train companies here do a combo of offering the train service and doing loads of real estate offerings at each station (making them very successful organizations overall). But I believe that we would see much less train coverage without continued gov't financing in these projects. Here is an article (from '97, granted) talking about how the gov't sets up things like interest-free loans for developing new lines. https://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr11/pdf/f14_ono.pdf https://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr11/pdf/f14_ono.pdf
    - buzzert 4y ago
      Why is this a problem though? It seems to be working out very well in Japan. Regardless of where the debt ends up, it seems like the people benefit.
      - rtpg 4y ago
        In both cases the people benefit, but in one the people benefit and it's still public property, whereas in the other the public goods were sold to business people and the business people are now getting a cut. [0] If somebody is making money off of a transaction, that money is coming from somewhere. At the margins that is fine but when we're talking about 10s of billions of dollars it just looks like a handout from the general public to people who had enough money to invest in a transportation corporation during its privatisation. Counterfactuals are not resolvable though, but I think we can look at how this stuff was built out and decide if there are structures to do it without having to just let go of democratic control of vital infrastructure. [0]: yes I understand that there's a universe where the public-run version just falls apart and doesn't exist.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
Agreed. Spain is leading the world here. It's frankly embarrassing given our population density, love or railways and history (inventing them), we have "Railtrack" plus a dozen foreign-owned totally rubbish train companies. We are more concerned with ticket barriers, CCTV cameras and Orwellian tracking of passengers than getting people from A to B so the economy can prosper with the smallest environmental harm.
- e4325f 4y ago
  Spain invented the railway?
  - hanoz 4y ago
    He's talking about Britain, compared to Spain.
andrewaylett 4y ago
On the topic at hand, though: Scotland has recently introduced free bus travel for resident under 25s, which is really useful. When I was that age I'd always take the bus over to Glasgow, because it was cheaper than the train. Between long-distance and local bus services, my teens can get most places in Scotland reasonably easily. And even down to Berwick or Carlisle, although they'd need to pay to go any further into England.
boulos 4y ago
> omnishambles TIL this amusing combo, thanks! The Wikipedia entry is helpful [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnishambles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnishambles

The UK is the fifth largest and almost every public service is a complete omnishambles.

by hanoz 4y ago

The UK is the fifth largest and almost every public service is a complete omnishambles.

I suggest dealing with the US healthcare system, or try taking public transportation in literally any city in the US and compare it to London.

bogomipz 4y ago
Sure, then let's compare NYC to London: The train in NYC runs 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The London Tube stops at midnight. The train in NYC is much much cheaper, it's $2.75 to go anywhere on its almost 400km of track. London's Tube has zone-based pricing. The NYC subway cars are all air-conditioned. The NYC subway cars are far roomier than the Tube. NYCs subway is "cut and cover" and so the stations aren't nearly as deep and quicker to get in and out of.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  Yeah but our trains are filthy and full of derelict and deranged people. I love the Subway but the Tube has a lot going for it.
- mattlondon 4y ago
  For what it is worth, the tube does not entirely shut at midnight: https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tube-improvements/what-we-are-doing/night-tube https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tube-improvements/what-we-are-do... The equivalent cut-and-cover lines have Aircon and are roomy (they are now also entirely walk-through carriages https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Bombardier_S_Stock_Circle_line_Interior_3.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Bombardi...). The deep-level lines though are often uncooled. Public transport in London is notoriously expensive though it is true. One major failing of the NYC subway in my mind is the near total lack of signage. There is like one map per carriage (which is often hidden behind people standing or sitting), and the platforms have almost no signage or maps or directions. You look out the window to see where you are when you pull into a station and there are no signs. Perhaps there is a single letter initial every 30 meters or so... WTF? At least in London the station name is repeated all the way along the platform (along with route maps and network maps and colour-coded signs to other lines etc), there are like 8 maps in every carriage at above-head-height so you can see it over people etc. The express routes in NYC subway are awesome and I wish London had those
buzzert 4y ago
The US healthcare system is not a public service. Nor are the trains in Tokyo.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  The US government spends about as large a percentage of GDP on healthcare as the UK does. It's just that in the US we double-dip for asking the users of healthcare to pay the same amount again.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- rtpg 4y ago
  Many train lines in Japan are funded in a public-private mix. I don't want to overstate this too much, I dislike the JR privatisation (including a part where a lot of the public-era debt ended up in the gov't's hand), and all the train companies here do a combo of offering the train service and doing loads of real estate offerings at each station (making them very successful organizations overall). But I believe that we would see much less train coverage without continued gov't financing in these projects. Here is an article (from '97, granted) talking about how the gov't sets up things like interest-free loans for developing new lines. https://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr11/pdf/f14_ono.pdf https://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr11/pdf/f14_ono.pdf
  - buzzert 4y ago
    Why is this a problem though? It seems to be working out very well in Japan. Regardless of where the debt ends up, it seems like the people benefit.
    - rtpg 4y ago
      In both cases the people benefit, but in one the people benefit and it's still public property, whereas in the other the public goods were sold to business people and the business people are now getting a cut. [0] If somebody is making money off of a transaction, that money is coming from somewhere. At the margins that is fine but when we're talking about 10s of billions of dollars it just looks like a handout from the general public to people who had enough money to invest in a transportation corporation during its privatisation. Counterfactuals are not resolvable though, but I think we can look at how this stuff was built out and decide if there are structures to do it without having to just let go of democratic control of vital infrastructure. [0]: yes I understand that there's a universe where the public-run version just falls apart and doesn't exist.

nonrandomstring 4y ago

Agreed. Spain is leading the world here. It's frankly embarrassing given our population density, love or railways and history (inventing them), we have "Railtrack" plus a dozen foreign-owned totally rubbish train companies. We are more concerned with ticket barriers, CCTV cameras and Orwellian tracking of passengers than getting people from A to B so the economy can prosper with the smallest environmental harm.

e4325f 4y ago
Spain invented the railway?
- hanoz 4y ago
  He's talking about Britain, compared to Spain.

andrewaylett 4y ago

On the topic at hand, though: Scotland has recently introduced free bus travel for resident under 25s, which is really useful. When I was that age I'd always take the bus over to Glasgow, because it was cheaper than the train. Between long-distance and local bus services, my teens can get most places in Scotland reasonably easily. And even down to Berwick or Carlisle, although they'd need to pay to go any further into England.

boulos 4y ago

> omnishambles TIL this amusing combo, thanks! The Wikipedia entry is helpful [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnishambles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnishambles