8 ms·

I live in Tokyo now, but I'm from Valencia, Spain. I knew the train there was bad when the local subway network, called "metrovalencia", was known locally as "m

I live in Tokyo now, but I'm from Valencia, Spain. I knew the train there was bad when the local subway network, called "metrovalencia", was known locally as "metrovalenshit" (there's even a twitter @metrovalenshit), but compared to other cities or specially Tokyo it's like a toy. In here (Tokyo) they make major station changes without even disrupting traffic[1], the only time traffic is disrupted meaningfully is when there's a major earthquake/typhoon. Back in Valencia, the gvmt started building a new line, but then they abandoned it for over a decade. In some weekends with strong rains it floods. At least we got to see really beautiful pictures when someone entered and navigated with a boat! Multiple times across the years[2][3]. If you go a bit more local (smaller towns) and want to take a bus that is scheduled every 20 min, you go to the bus stop and hope that one will come within the next hour. We had to help a foreigner once that was gonna miss her flight since she was waiting for over an hour with no sight of a bus. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BYW4YYqG5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BYW4YYqG5A [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20130111154819/http://www.goodfellasmagazine.com/laluzalfinal/vivo-navegando/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130111154819/http://www.goodfe... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=022pgffEy6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=022pgffEy6A

Scarbutt 4y ago
Most countries are going to be bad when compared to Japan. Japan is also the third largest economy.
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  Yeah I’m in the USA just jealous that they have trains in Spain.
  - Aperocky 4y ago
    Interstate is marvelous. US is too big and too sparsely populated both on a large scale and small scale for trains like Europe, Japan and China. There's a part where no one talk about, and that's the infrastructure within the city are not conducive to trains. People get to a train station and they need to get around and unless you're talking about New York they really just need another car. This in comparison to European and Asian cities where your friend can just post you an address and you can use public transit all the way to the last block.
    - wumpus 4y ago
      There are parts of the US, namely the parts where a majority of people live, that are densely-populated enough for trains.
      - Aperocky 4y ago
        You didn't read the local scale problem did you? New England is as populated as Europe but that's moot because you still need a car when you get to the station because suburbia.
        distances 4y ago
        In European cities you have bus service in trackless suburbia. Tracks are always better but need bus service in addition as practically you won't be building tracks everywhere.
    - mertd 4y ago
      It's a catch 22. The excuse for not building proper transit is sprawl and the excuse for sprawl is not having proper transit. Sprawl always wins in the US.
      - ben-schaaf 4y ago
        It's a very short sighted excuse to use for not building transit. Sure if you don't have a land-use plan, but then why build the transit in the first place. These things always go hand-in-hand; many towns started as a train station.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - nine_zeros 4y ago
      US is big is a silly way to reject trains. So are China and India. Both have extensive train networks that allow people to take a train instead of long road trips. The trains are packed. Mobility is super high and abundantly available. Quality may differ but it's improving because people want it. Either way, it keeps cars off the road leading to less pollution, less metal junk and less inflation. US land is amazingly well suited for HSR and cities are well suited for subways. We also have the money. The only problem is political.
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    That does not say much about Spain. It's a failure of the US.
- hanoz 4y ago
  The UK is the fifth largest and almost every public service is a complete omnishambles.
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    I suggest dealing with the US healthcare system, or try taking public transportation in literally any city in the US and compare it to London.
    - bogomipz 4y ago
      Sure, then let's compare NYC to London: The train in NYC runs 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The London Tube stops at midnight. The train in NYC is much much cheaper, it's $2.75 to go anywhere on its almost 400km of track. London's Tube has zone-based pricing. The NYC subway cars are all air-conditioned. The NYC subway cars are far roomier than the Tube. NYCs subway is "cut and cover" and so the stations aren't nearly as deep and quicker to get in and out of.
      - nemo44x 4y ago
        Yeah but our trains are filthy and full of derelict and deranged people. I love the Subway but the Tube has a lot going for it.
      - mattlondon 4y ago
        For what it is worth, the tube does not entirely shut at midnight: https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tube-improvements/what-we-are-doing/night-tube https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tube-improvements/what-we-are-do... The equivalent cut-and-cover lines have Aircon and are roomy (they are now also entirely walk-through carriages https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Bombardier_S_Stock_Circle_line_Interior_3.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Bombardi...). The deep-level lines though are often uncooled. Public transport in London is notoriously expensive though it is true. One major failing of the NYC subway in my mind is the near total lack of signage. There is like one map per carriage (which is often hidden behind people standing or sitting), and the platforms have almost no signage or maps or directions. You look out the window to see where you are when you pull into a station and there are no signs. Perhaps there is a single letter initial every 30 meters or so... WTF? At least in London the station name is repeated all the way along the platform (along with route maps and network maps and colour-coded signs to other lines etc), there are like 8 maps in every carriage at above-head-height so you can see it over people etc. The express routes in NYC subway are awesome and I wish London had those
- franciscop 4y ago
  Spain has the 2nd largest high speed train network of the world, only after China (and only in the last few years, it was #1 before). So I don't think it's a problem of investment, it's a problem of how well you maintain things, if you overbuild and then cannot finish or maintain it then it's a problem that has little to do with economy. Another example of high speed train, they forced flight companies to make the Valencia <=> Madrid flights more expensive because people preferred going by plane than by train (faster, easier, way cheaper). Yup, instead of making the train better or cheaper, just force the private companies to be worse so the public infra can compete. Why was it so expensive? Because of it being many times overbudget? Why? Because everyone was taking money.
  - Scarbutt 4y ago
    Fair enough. I should have also add that Japan is an engineering powerhouse.
  - spaniard89277 4y ago
    As a Spaniard, I think that's highly suspicious of being one of those internal internal consumption narratives of how bad everything is. Do you have any proof of that scheme you're mentioning? I say this because, believe it or not, one of the things that Spain does right is building infrastructure on a budget. There has been corruption cases and places when it has been horrid, but in general is well managed. You'd be surprised how bad it is in many other countries deemed better by your average spaniard. In terms of cost overruns, time, and all kinds of nasty shit.
  - dieortin 4y ago
    Flying is artificially cheap to the point the ticket prices make no sense. It's massively subsidized, so it's not really fair to compare it with the train. Anyways, I have to hard disagree on flying being faster and easier than going by train. Flying is a pretty horrendous experience in comparison, and if you account for the time spent in the airport and getting to it it's not faster either.
    - franciscop 4y ago
superchroma 4y ago
Well, in fairness, I think just about every rail line on this planet pales in comparison to the reliability and quality of Tokyo rail operations.
- ben-schaaf 4y ago
  The Swiss are probably in contention.
- franciscop 4y ago
  True, I'm just saying that while I knew other cities/countries were better, but I didn't really know how many orders of magnitude better until I lived in Tokyo. It wasn't until I left the pond that I learned that there was not only a lake, but an ocean.
wumpus 4y ago
I recently did Madrid-Granada and back via train, it was a great experience.
null_object 4y ago
> I live in Tokyo now, but I'm from Valencia, Spain. I knew the train there was bad when the local subway network, called "metrovalencia", was known locally as "metrovalenshit I’m sure your experience of your own hometown is accurate, but as a person who’s visited Valencia a few times I’ve found the transport to be excellent: my whole family used the metro to get around without any hitches, and we were always surprised by how clean, quiet and efficient it was. The train between Valencia and Alicante was like boarding a luxurious airplane: an attendant ushered us on and came around with a food trolley. The ride was smooth and almost silent, and the ticket price included small extras like a free pair of headphones for listening to the onboard radio. This was all just regular economy. I think it may be a national characteristic to rundown your own country, as my family background is also Spanish and all my relatives always say Spain is a ‘mierda’ (shit) and speak lyrically about how wonderful everything must be in my current country (Sweden), but in fact the last few weeks the train service here in Sweden has been sporadic and continuously interrupted by various problems, as it often is both summer and winter. A Swede will rarely admit this to outsiders though. So I’m willing to give this initiative a very enthusiastic welcome, instead of instantly dismissing it as a gimmick, or gloomily bound to fail.
- franciscop 4y ago
  Oh no I'm very happy for this initiative! My comment was not about the initiative, but about the corruption, incompetence and delays that plague the Spanish train systems. At least now it's free so that's great news! See in my other comment, they had to force airlines to make planes more expensive because people were using planes instead of the Madrid <=> Valencia train. Also I'm comparing it to Tokyo, which as others comment is a bit unfair since it's basically the best train network in the world.
  - clairity 4y ago
    you should also try the LA metro for how bad a transit network can be under poor management and corrupt city government. we have some of the best weather in the world, where multi-modal transportation is imminently viable, and yet we've built for cars and sprawl instead. i remember in tokyo that train headways during rush hour is as little as 90 seconds. and it's punctual as hell. in LA, we're lucky if we get down to 10 minutes, plus or minus 20 minutes. LA is not quite as big or rich as tokyo, but it's on a similar scale, yet we have an order of magnitude worse public transit. it's so frustrating.
Fargren 4y ago
One thing that I have noticed about Spanish natives in my five years of living in Spain, is this frequent comparison with every other richer country. By almost every measure, life in Spain is great. Public transport is great, but you compare it with Japan which is the best in the world. Security is great, but you compare it with Luxembourg. Unemployment and salaries are... OK, above average at least, but you compare it with Germany. Spain has issues, but every other country does too. There's a reason "eramos felices y no lo sabiamos" is a Spanish expression... I really wish people here would appreciate how good they have it.
- franciscop 4y ago
  You are mixing being happy with being in a country with great economy/salary/transport/etc. e.g. the job situation is ridiculously bad, and that's not a "compare" thing, it just is. I've seen people break down crying in class in my degree that hated it and studied it only because it's one of the few that you were kinda promised employment when you finished. Many friends all around Europe, or jobless for long stretchs of time, depending on their family. I have similar anecdotes for how transportation or security can be troublesome in Spain. Sure you can be happy with little, as Spaniards normally do, but that doesn't mean everything is great or we shouldn't try to do better. How do we improve if we don't see the problems within?
kh_hk 4y ago
Apples to oranges, I am sorry to put it so bluntly. I agree we should strive for better transportation and services overall, but comparing Tokyo with Valencia?
golemiprague 4y ago
cprecioso 4y ago
The metro tunnels were fixed and the new line actually opened last month!
webinvest 4y ago
I recently rode the metros in Barcelona, NY, Paris, and London and the ones in Barcelona, Spain were the best and highest quality subways I have ever ridden. No comment on the ones in Valencia but it seems odd that there would be such a difference within the same country.

Scarbutt 4y ago

Most countries are going to be bad when compared to Japan. Japan is also the third largest economy.

TaylorAlexander 4y ago
Yeah I’m in the USA just jealous that they have trains in Spain.
- Aperocky 4y ago
  Interstate is marvelous. US is too big and too sparsely populated both on a large scale and small scale for trains like Europe, Japan and China. There's a part where no one talk about, and that's the infrastructure within the city are not conducive to trains. People get to a train station and they need to get around and unless you're talking about New York they really just need another car. This in comparison to European and Asian cities where your friend can just post you an address and you can use public transit all the way to the last block.
  - wumpus 4y ago
    There are parts of the US, namely the parts where a majority of people live, that are densely-populated enough for trains.
    - Aperocky 4y ago
      You didn't read the local scale problem did you? New England is as populated as Europe but that's moot because you still need a car when you get to the station because suburbia.
      - distances 4y ago
        In European cities you have bus service in trackless suburbia. Tracks are always better but need bus service in addition as practically you won't be building tracks everywhere.
  - mertd 4y ago
    It's a catch 22. The excuse for not building proper transit is sprawl and the excuse for sprawl is not having proper transit. Sprawl always wins in the US.
    - ben-schaaf 4y ago
      It's a very short sighted excuse to use for not building transit. Sure if you don't have a land-use plan, but then why build the transit in the first place. These things always go hand-in-hand; many towns started as a train station.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - nine_zeros 4y ago
    US is big is a silly way to reject trains. So are China and India. Both have extensive train networks that allow people to take a train instead of long road trips. The trains are packed. Mobility is super high and abundantly available. Quality may differ but it's improving because people want it. Either way, it keeps cars off the road leading to less pollution, less metal junk and less inflation. US land is amazingly well suited for HSR and cities are well suited for subways. We also have the money. The only problem is political.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  That does not say much about Spain. It's a failure of the US.
hanoz 4y ago
The UK is the fifth largest and almost every public service is a complete omnishambles.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  I suggest dealing with the US healthcare system, or try taking public transportation in literally any city in the US and compare it to London.
  - bogomipz 4y ago
    Sure, then let's compare NYC to London: The train in NYC runs 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The London Tube stops at midnight. The train in NYC is much much cheaper, it's $2.75 to go anywhere on its almost 400km of track. London's Tube has zone-based pricing. The NYC subway cars are all air-conditioned. The NYC subway cars are far roomier than the Tube. NYCs subway is "cut and cover" and so the stations aren't nearly as deep and quicker to get in and out of.
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      Yeah but our trains are filthy and full of derelict and deranged people. I love the Subway but the Tube has a lot going for it.
    - mattlondon 4y ago
      For what it is worth, the tube does not entirely shut at midnight: https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tube-improvements/what-we-are-doing/night-tube https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tube-improvements/what-we-are-do... The equivalent cut-and-cover lines have Aircon and are roomy (they are now also entirely walk-through carriages https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Bombardier_S_Stock_Circle_line_Interior_3.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Bombardi...). The deep-level lines though are often uncooled. Public transport in London is notoriously expensive though it is true. One major failing of the NYC subway in my mind is the near total lack of signage. There is like one map per carriage (which is often hidden behind people standing or sitting), and the platforms have almost no signage or maps or directions. You look out the window to see where you are when you pull into a station and there are no signs. Perhaps there is a single letter initial every 30 meters or so... WTF? At least in London the station name is repeated all the way along the platform (along with route maps and network maps and colour-coded signs to other lines etc), there are like 8 maps in every carriage at above-head-height so you can see it over people etc. The express routes in NYC subway are awesome and I wish London had those
franciscop 4y ago
Spain has the 2nd largest high speed train network of the world, only after China (and only in the last few years, it was #1 before). So I don't think it's a problem of investment, it's a problem of how well you maintain things, if you overbuild and then cannot finish or maintain it then it's a problem that has little to do with economy. Another example of high speed train, they forced flight companies to make the Valencia <=> Madrid flights more expensive because people preferred going by plane than by train (faster, easier, way cheaper). Yup, instead of making the train better or cheaper, just force the private companies to be worse so the public infra can compete. Why was it so expensive? Because of it being many times overbudget? Why? Because everyone was taking money.
- Scarbutt 4y ago
  Fair enough. I should have also add that Japan is an engineering powerhouse.
- spaniard89277 4y ago
  As a Spaniard, I think that's highly suspicious of being one of those internal internal consumption narratives of how bad everything is. Do you have any proof of that scheme you're mentioning? I say this because, believe it or not, one of the things that Spain does right is building infrastructure on a budget. There has been corruption cases and places when it has been horrid, but in general is well managed. You'd be surprised how bad it is in many other countries deemed better by your average spaniard. In terms of cost overruns, time, and all kinds of nasty shit.
- dieortin 4y ago
  Flying is artificially cheap to the point the ticket prices make no sense. It's massively subsidized, so it's not really fair to compare it with the train. Anyways, I have to hard disagree on flying being faster and easier than going by train. Flying is a pretty horrendous experience in comparison, and if you account for the time spent in the airport and getting to it it's not faster either.
  - franciscop 4y ago

superchroma 4y ago

Well, in fairness, I think just about every rail line on this planet pales in comparison to the reliability and quality of Tokyo rail operations.

ben-schaaf 4y ago
The Swiss are probably in contention.
franciscop 4y ago
True, I'm just saying that while I knew other cities/countries were better, but I didn't really know how many orders of magnitude better until I lived in Tokyo. It wasn't until I left the pond that I learned that there was not only a lake, but an ocean.

wumpus 4y ago

I recently did Madrid-Granada and back via train, it was a great experience.

null_object 4y ago

> I live in Tokyo now, but I'm from Valencia, Spain. I knew the train there was bad when the local subway network, called "metrovalencia", was known locally as "metrovalenshit I’m sure your experience of your own hometown is accurate, but as a person who’s visited Valencia a few times I’ve found the transport to be excellent: my whole family used the metro to get around without any hitches, and we were always surprised by how clean, quiet and efficient it was. The train between Valencia and Alicante was like boarding a luxurious airplane: an attendant ushered us on and came around with a food trolley. The ride was smooth and almost silent, and the ticket price included small extras like a free pair of headphones for listening to the onboard radio. This was all just regular economy. I think it may be a national characteristic to rundown your own country, as my family background is also Spanish and all my relatives always say Spain is a ‘mierda’ (shit) and speak lyrically about how wonderful everything must be in my current country (Sweden), but in fact the last few weeks the train service here in Sweden has been sporadic and continuously interrupted by various problems, as it often is both summer and winter. A Swede will rarely admit this to outsiders though. So I’m willing to give this initiative a very enthusiastic welcome, instead of instantly dismissing it as a gimmick, or gloomily bound to fail.

franciscop 4y ago
Oh no I'm very happy for this initiative! My comment was not about the initiative, but about the corruption, incompetence and delays that plague the Spanish train systems. At least now it's free so that's great news! See in my other comment, they had to force airlines to make planes more expensive because people were using planes instead of the Madrid <=> Valencia train. Also I'm comparing it to Tokyo, which as others comment is a bit unfair since it's basically the best train network in the world.
- clairity 4y ago
  you should also try the LA metro for how bad a transit network can be under poor management and corrupt city government. we have some of the best weather in the world, where multi-modal transportation is imminently viable, and yet we've built for cars and sprawl instead. i remember in tokyo that train headways during rush hour is as little as 90 seconds. and it's punctual as hell. in LA, we're lucky if we get down to 10 minutes, plus or minus 20 minutes. LA is not quite as big or rich as tokyo, but it's on a similar scale, yet we have an order of magnitude worse public transit. it's so frustrating.

Fargren 4y ago

One thing that I have noticed about Spanish natives in my five years of living in Spain, is this frequent comparison with every other richer country. By almost every measure, life in Spain is great. Public transport is great, but you compare it with Japan which is the best in the world. Security is great, but you compare it with Luxembourg. Unemployment and salaries are... OK, above average at least, but you compare it with Germany. Spain has issues, but every other country does too. There's a reason "eramos felices y no lo sabiamos" is a Spanish expression... I really wish people here would appreciate how good they have it.

franciscop 4y ago
You are mixing being happy with being in a country with great economy/salary/transport/etc. e.g. the job situation is ridiculously bad, and that's not a "compare" thing, it just is. I've seen people break down crying in class in my degree that hated it and studied it only because it's one of the few that you were kinda promised employment when you finished. Many friends all around Europe, or jobless for long stretchs of time, depending on their family. I have similar anecdotes for how transportation or security can be troublesome in Spain. Sure you can be happy with little, as Spaniards normally do, but that doesn't mean everything is great or we shouldn't try to do better. How do we improve if we don't see the problems within?

kh_hk 4y ago

Apples to oranges, I am sorry to put it so bluntly. I agree we should strive for better transportation and services overall, but comparing Tokyo with Valencia?

golemiprague 4y ago

cprecioso 4y ago

The metro tunnels were fixed and the new line actually opened last month!

webinvest 4y ago

I recently rode the metros in Barcelona, NY, Paris, and London and the ones in Barcelona, Spain were the best and highest quality subways I have ever ridden. No comment on the ones in Valencia but it seems odd that there would be such a difference within the same country.