6 ms·

Unless there's some kind of enforcement mechanism, free public transit becomes the abode of the homeless.

by baggy_trough 4y ago

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Should not be an issue in Europe. Usually homeless people have other options than sleeping in public transport here.
- Ferrotin 4y ago
  It helps that they have less civil rights in Europe. Or less civil liberties. In America the state is very restricted in how it can deal with the homeless.
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    Please explain. You may give the idea Europe can deal with the problem through some unclear authoritarian action.
    - Ferrotin 4y ago
      The U.S., specially certain states, has what other countries would call extreme limits on its ability to deal with mentally ill vagrants. An inability to involuntarily institutionalize them, or even throw out the stuff they abandon on the sidewalk. It isn’t from lack of money spent on these people. So you see them riding the BART in San Francisco, making a nuisance of themselves, while also, the city spends a ton of money and has homeless shelters. Also, the basic ability of police to hassle people is less.
  - baggachipz 4y ago
    Social safety net == "less civil rights' and "less civil liberties"? Wow, I'd love to hear how one could ever arrive at that conclusion.
  - andrewaylett 4y ago
    I'm not sure exactly what sort of "dealing with" you're imaginging, but the lack of homeless folk on our public transport isn't because they've been locked up, it's because they're (for the most part) sleeping in a building. For reference: https://www.gov.scot/publications/homelessness-scotland-update-30-september-2021/pages/5/ https://www.gov.scot/publications/homelessness-scotland-upda... Only 1% of Scotland's homeless were intentionally homeless, and 4% reported sleeping rough the previous night -- a total of 690 across Scotland. Which is still 690 too many. And yes, it's not free of charge to the public purse, but it's significantly cheaper than not providing support and then needing to deal with the consequences.
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    While it'll obviously vary by country, in general the state "deals with" homelessness by offering free or subsidised housing (preferable) and/or temporary and emergency accommodation. Not sure what's particularly anti-civil-liberties about that.
  - juunpp 4y ago
    What are you even talking about?
- odiroot 4y ago
  Still a big issue in Berlin.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Berlin is not an example of a well run city by western European standards, despite the well paid tech sector and being a capital city of Europe's strongest economy. Maybe good by Eastern European standards.
- MoreSEMI 4y ago
  Do you live in europe? I do and it being europe does not mean I haven’t seen homeless in public transport.
belter 4y ago
This is Spain not Silicon Valley. For a country of 48 million people, there is a calculated total of homelessness of 40,000. And they have social services to support them. By contrast, 40,000 is the amount of homeless just in the San Francisco Area... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Spain
- AdrianB1 4y ago
  When free buss passes were issued in Bucharest, Romania, to people over 65 years old there was a major problem with some of these people taking the bus across town for most of the day during winter and turn off the heating at home. Others were crossing the town for several hours a day because they were bored at home. It was reported in local newspapers and even national TV. One does not need to be really homeless to figure out it is convenient to occupy a bus or a train.
  - lucb1e 4y ago
    > It was reported in local newspapers and even national TV. But did you also experience it IRL? Usually the things that are newsworthy are not the common standard that everyone is actually experiencing in day-to-day life.
    - AdrianB1 4y ago
      Correct, my statistical experiment with a sample of 1 is more relevant than several, independent journalists doing investigations. I will better myself.
      - scrollaway 4y ago
        If your journalists are calling something a “major problem” and you’re not seeing a single instance of it, I too got some independent news for you.
        AdrianB1 4y ago
occz 4y ago
Trying to use a ticketing system as a solution to the inconvenience of having to see people without homes is a particularly awful take. Solve the problem of homelessness by making homes and putting the homeless people in them, don't use a public transportation ticketing system as a means of driving them out of sight.
smileysteve 4y ago
Physical mobility is one of the most limiting factors for economic mobility. So if some homeless people on trains can reduce the total number of homeless it seems like a policy win.
- baggy_trough 4y ago
  Not if it drives regular citizens from the trains. They would become an extremely expensive housing supply rather than transportation.

Unless there's some kind of enforcement mechanism, free public transit becomes the abode of the homeless.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

Should not be an issue in Europe. Usually homeless people have other options than sleeping in public transport here.

Ferrotin 4y ago
It helps that they have less civil rights in Europe. Or less civil liberties. In America the state is very restricted in how it can deal with the homeless.
- mdp2021 4y ago
  Please explain. You may give the idea Europe can deal with the problem through some unclear authoritarian action.
  - Ferrotin 4y ago
    The U.S., specially certain states, has what other countries would call extreme limits on its ability to deal with mentally ill vagrants. An inability to involuntarily institutionalize them, or even throw out the stuff they abandon on the sidewalk. It isn’t from lack of money spent on these people. So you see them riding the BART in San Francisco, making a nuisance of themselves, while also, the city spends a ton of money and has homeless shelters. Also, the basic ability of police to hassle people is less.
- baggachipz 4y ago
  Social safety net == "less civil rights' and "less civil liberties"? Wow, I'd love to hear how one could ever arrive at that conclusion.
- andrewaylett 4y ago
  I'm not sure exactly what sort of "dealing with" you're imaginging, but the lack of homeless folk on our public transport isn't because they've been locked up, it's because they're (for the most part) sleeping in a building. For reference: https://www.gov.scot/publications/homelessness-scotland-update-30-september-2021/pages/5/ https://www.gov.scot/publications/homelessness-scotland-upda... Only 1% of Scotland's homeless were intentionally homeless, and 4% reported sleeping rough the previous night -- a total of 690 across Scotland. Which is still 690 too many. And yes, it's not free of charge to the public purse, but it's significantly cheaper than not providing support and then needing to deal with the consequences.
- rsynnott 4y ago
  While it'll obviously vary by country, in general the state "deals with" homelessness by offering free or subsidised housing (preferable) and/or temporary and emergency accommodation. Not sure what's particularly anti-civil-liberties about that.
- juunpp 4y ago
  What are you even talking about?
odiroot 4y ago
Still a big issue in Berlin.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Berlin is not an example of a well run city by western European standards, despite the well paid tech sector and being a capital city of Europe's strongest economy. Maybe good by Eastern European standards.
MoreSEMI 4y ago
Do you live in europe? I do and it being europe does not mean I haven’t seen homeless in public transport.

belter 4y ago

This is Spain not Silicon Valley. For a country of 48 million people, there is a calculated total of homelessness of 40,000. And they have social services to support them. By contrast, 40,000 is the amount of homeless just in the San Francisco Area... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Spain

AdrianB1 4y ago
When free buss passes were issued in Bucharest, Romania, to people over 65 years old there was a major problem with some of these people taking the bus across town for most of the day during winter and turn off the heating at home. Others were crossing the town for several hours a day because they were bored at home. It was reported in local newspapers and even national TV. One does not need to be really homeless to figure out it is convenient to occupy a bus or a train.
- lucb1e 4y ago
  > It was reported in local newspapers and even national TV. But did you also experience it IRL? Usually the things that are newsworthy are not the common standard that everyone is actually experiencing in day-to-day life.
  - AdrianB1 4y ago
    Correct, my statistical experiment with a sample of 1 is more relevant than several, independent journalists doing investigations. I will better myself.
    - scrollaway 4y ago
      If your journalists are calling something a “major problem” and you’re not seeing a single instance of it, I too got some independent news for you.
      - AdrianB1 4y ago

occz 4y ago

Trying to use a ticketing system as a solution to the inconvenience of having to see people without homes is a particularly awful take. Solve the problem of homelessness by making homes and putting the homeless people in them, don't use a public transportation ticketing system as a means of driving them out of sight.

smileysteve 4y ago

Physical mobility is one of the most limiting factors for economic mobility. So if some homeless people on trains can reduce the total number of homeless it seems like a policy win.

baggy_trough 4y ago
Not if it drives regular citizens from the trains. They would become an extremely expensive housing supply rather than transportation.