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I used to think this way and wound up completely exhausted in my career. Coming from web dev, I used to volunteer to dive into a Objective C repo to fix some ra

I used to think this way and wound up completely exhausted in my career. Coming from web dev, I used to volunteer to dive into a Objective C repo to fix some random bug in a mobile app and then a week later my boss would ask me to build a big feature in that app. I'd spend a few weeks getting up to speed on the language and build the feature, and then I would never use what I learned again. My boss would ask me to dive into another tool I don't really know and the cycle would repeat ad nauseum. In hindsight, I've wasted so much time digging into tools that I've never used again. I definitely learned some good lessons and recognized some patterns along the way, but I think the "just pick it up and learn it" attitude contributes to poor code quality in a commercial context since jobs usually time-box things. I'm a fan of picking something up that I can get expert feedback from, which there again, requires expertise.

rco8786 4y ago
> I've wasted so much time digging into tools that I've never used again. Don’t think of it this way. Learning new tools is almost never a waste of time, you just don’t know when you’ll need the lessons learned next. But you will.
- mmartinson 4y ago
  It's valuable to consider the opportunity cost of this compared to a deepened knowledge of an already productive tool
- rolisz 4y ago
  It depends. Maybe the alternative is to get better at a tool you already know. Maybe you can be a jack of all trades, master of none, or you can go really deep into only 2-3 things. It depends a lot on your personality I think.
- weatherlite 4y ago
  What lessons do I learn from learning webpack? Or whatever the new way of bundling things in FE is called now? Compare that to understanding C or UNIX. There are skills that decay much slower than others.
  - biztos 4y ago
    Maybe it's counterintuitive, but I think the "jack of all trades" role should be given to someone who's very senior, but isn't focused on career advancement. It sounds like you got stuck learning more trivial things before you had a good foundation in something more substantial (like C or UNIX). If it weren't for the rampant ageism in the industry, that job might be a perfect fit for someone in their 60s who has already written a few million lines of C and is happy to help less experienced people just get unblocked. Instead it often falls to the "junior senior" because the "senior seniors" are all pushing 30 and need to work on portable skills. (Just my observation of the industry, maybe your own case was different.)
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    > Compare that to understanding C or UNIX. There are skills that decay much slower than others. Correct! Knowledge around C, Linux, CPUs and optimization last many decades. Knowledge of tools and libraries in high-churn languages last years at best.
    - EddySchauHai 4y ago
      I've found a lot more career happiness with focusing on a long-term domain (networking), long-term expertise (testing), and a stable tech stack (python, c, etc). Got pretty close to burnout chasing the latest libraries in the latest languages a few years ago but now I'm very happy making sure the product is cutting edge but the tech stack is stable.
      - weatherlite 4y ago
        This is what I'm trying to do as well now (move from full stack web dev to something more in the lines of what you're describing). Any tips you can remember on how to make the move?
        EddySchauHai 4y ago
        I spent a bit of time practicing these tech stacks in my own time and fitting them into prior jobs where I could, but honestly it’s worth just getting out there and applying.
BryanBeshore 4y ago
Having done the merry go round of different languages, it also feels great gaining expertise in an individual language and to utilize new (release) capabilities of that the language.
- thr0wawayf00 4y ago
  Absolutely. Conversely, it's frustrating to deal with a build and release system that's subpar compared to what you're used to working with, but I recognize some folks probably feel that way about my preferred tools. That's just where I've chosen to invest my time I guess. I was shocked at how hellish compiling and releasing a large iOS app was compared to deploying a web service, not to mention setting up the development environment and installing dependencies.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Yep, if I never have to deal with an automated CI/CD pipeline for iOS again (especially trying to reliably run unit tests - the simulator is flaky as hell) I'll be very happy. I don't even mind the MacOS-only requirement so much (though it does suck), but Apple's tendency to constantly force breaking changes on you is just an endless source of pain (by force I mean, release to App Store not permitted unless you build with version X of Xcode, which requires version Y of MacOS which is incompatible with version just-about-anything-else or everything else you're using.)
rtlfe 4y ago
That's pretty excessive. I've switched languages whenever I get a new job, every 2-5 years. I think this is more what OP had in mind.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  How do you switch languages during a job search? Are you avoiding companies with language requirements (four years Ruby)? Do you run into language/framework tests and/or homework assignments in languages you are unfamiliar with?
  - rtlfe 4y ago
    I've interviewed at probably 15+ companies over the last decade, and none of them had language requirements or tests. Honestly I see those things as red flags. If you can find somebody with good problem solving skills and proficiency in any language, they'll be able to pick up your language no problem.
    - hutzlibu 4y ago
      "they'll be able to pick up your language no problem." That still takes time. If someone is already experienced in an (complex) ecosystem, he or she will be way more effective in it, than someone who has just general skills. I guess I am a very good problem solver. But if I suddenly would have to do a C++ project with all its footguns, I am not aware of (last time I coded in C++ was in university)? I would suck in it for quite a while. This would not be effective at all, unless I would want to change my skillset to the C++ ecosystem.
      - rtlfe 4y ago
        > That still takes time. Yes. I want to work somewhere that shows they're committed to the long term, not somewhere that's focused on how much I'll get done in my first week.
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      I'm guessing that's not typical for most devs and most job openings. Recruiters in particular seem to assume they need to find devs experienced with particular stacks, and for companies who need to quickly re-fill roles after losing staff, a good dev with experience in the stack/ecosystem you've been working with is always going to get up to speed faster than one without that experience. I'd also say convincing hiring managers that specific libraries/ platforms/languages/tools that you've been using shouldn't be listed as "must have"'s in a JD is hard.
sys_64738 4y ago
> My boss would ask me to dive into another tool I don't really know and the cycle would repeat ad nauseum. There is power in saying No.
- unnouinceput 4y ago
  There is power in saying "Yes, for this price" too. Explain the problem and the damage to your mental health if you do that, hence the price.
  - afarrell 4y ago
    Your first sentence is correct. Your second sentence would be better revised to "Explain the problem and the fact that the client will be signing on for a long timeline and high level of schedule-risk. Then work at a pace which does not damage your mental health."
zinodaur 4y ago
an edit I would make to > think of yourself as a problem solver, rather than a programmer of a specific language would be to > steer away from problems that are boring to you E.g., there are very cool programs being written in Objective C, so I wouldn't write off a job just because it was in Objective C
zerr 4y ago
Sounds like a dream job! No joke.
kevinmchugh 4y ago
There are organizations that generate forgotten apps that are basically used but unmaintained. These are tarpits for developers. You don't want to be the person they fling at every forgotten codebase. They tend to be sideshows - if they really brought in the money, or the users, the business would invest in them and have people who know the language. There's value in being able to go in, fix a little problem, and make things better for your customers. But you have to balance that against becoming the guy who works on the unimportant projects. That's real bad. If there's growth potential for the forgotten app, you have to get buy-in from the business and not just sideline yourself away from the things people care about. Often these tarpits were contractually mandated. One customer wants a particular integration, so a developer builds it, and it works for the customer and everything is fine until another customer comes along wanting a similar integration and now the original dev is gone.
- sdoering 4y ago
  I know from quite a few traditional corporations, especially banks that have very central old systems that they pay people enormous day rates to maintain. But the question would be if one wants to be the go to guy for keeping old cobol things running.
  - szundi 4y ago
    The value of any other stuff you learn other than solving problems has half life. If you can be paid extra for Cobol stuff for a decade or two, then why not use this opportunity and get up to speed in 2-3 years after that. If you have just a bit of bad luck, you may have a carreer with no real deep involvement with anything, not even talking about the fact that the language is just one aspect of your productivity.
  - HPsquared 4y ago
    You could call the general skill "software archaeology".
- edgyquant 4y ago
  Refactoring old codebases into something nice to work on is comfy though. It’s basically what I do in the startup world I just use less niche languages. Although I’d suspect there isn’t a lot of refactoring going on in some of those code bases you describe.
jjice 4y ago
> Coming from web dev, I used to volunteer to dive into a Objective C repo to fix some random bug in a mobile app The thing about this is that this isn't just a language change, this is an ecosystem change. It's one thing to go from writing Python based web apps to Ruby based ones, because web dev has a lot of concepts that will apply no matter the language. Objective C might be something you can pick up no problem, but having the learn all about mobile development and that ecosystem is a much larger task, and I could absolutely see that getting exhausting if you're hopping from web, to mobile, to desktop, to embedded, etc. Ecosystem switching requires a lot more of a knowledge shift than just a language does, IMO.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  I'd agree with that. I even think the difference between frontend JS development and backend JS development is bigger than, say, backend Java and JS development. But managers, even ones with tech backgrounds, tend to assume the language is the key skill. A good developer should be able to master a couple of different ecosystems given enough time but expecting them to constantly jump between them is never going to lead to great results.
Aperocky 4y ago
> contributes to poor code quality I have another perspective, I think code quality are pretty uniform across languages, either all of ones code quality is poor or it will be fine across all language one writes. Most of the code quality stems from logically dividing the building blocks and making it readable. Hence it should be logically traceable and uses the basics whenever possible. This is good, readable code. Obviously some languages demands greater knowledge (e.g. C, Haskell) to master and use appropriately but they are a minority.
- wutbrodo 4y ago
  I strongly disagree. It's very visible when someone is trying to write (eg) Python in C++ or vice versa, in a way that can substantially harm readability.
AlwaysRock 4y ago
Yeah I agree. I know growing and learning is the job. But how much am I going to use X in the future? I did one project in PHP. Just enough to learn I don't really like working in PHP. Is a few months of PHP experience useful in later job searches?
winternett 4y ago
I can't tell you how often a huge and expensive Oracle DB app design project turned into just emailing spreadsheets instead... That would get me fired.. -Senior Developers Everwhere. :P

rco8786 4y ago

> I've wasted so much time digging into tools that I've never used again. Don’t think of it this way. Learning new tools is almost never a waste of time, you just don’t know when you’ll need the lessons learned next. But you will.

mmartinson 4y ago
It's valuable to consider the opportunity cost of this compared to a deepened knowledge of an already productive tool
rolisz 4y ago
It depends. Maybe the alternative is to get better at a tool you already know. Maybe you can be a jack of all trades, master of none, or you can go really deep into only 2-3 things. It depends a lot on your personality I think.
weatherlite 4y ago
What lessons do I learn from learning webpack? Or whatever the new way of bundling things in FE is called now? Compare that to understanding C or UNIX. There are skills that decay much slower than others.
- biztos 4y ago
  Maybe it's counterintuitive, but I think the "jack of all trades" role should be given to someone who's very senior, but isn't focused on career advancement. It sounds like you got stuck learning more trivial things before you had a good foundation in something more substantial (like C or UNIX). If it weren't for the rampant ageism in the industry, that job might be a perfect fit for someone in their 60s who has already written a few million lines of C and is happy to help less experienced people just get unblocked. Instead it often falls to the "junior senior" because the "senior seniors" are all pushing 30 and need to work on portable skills. (Just my observation of the industry, maybe your own case was different.)
- goodpoint 4y ago
  > Compare that to understanding C or UNIX. There are skills that decay much slower than others. Correct! Knowledge around C, Linux, CPUs and optimization last many decades. Knowledge of tools and libraries in high-churn languages last years at best.
  - EddySchauHai 4y ago
    I've found a lot more career happiness with focusing on a long-term domain (networking), long-term expertise (testing), and a stable tech stack (python, c, etc). Got pretty close to burnout chasing the latest libraries in the latest languages a few years ago but now I'm very happy making sure the product is cutting edge but the tech stack is stable.
    - weatherlite 4y ago
      This is what I'm trying to do as well now (move from full stack web dev to something more in the lines of what you're describing). Any tips you can remember on how to make the move?
      - EddySchauHai 4y ago
        I spent a bit of time practicing these tech stacks in my own time and fitting them into prior jobs where I could, but honestly it’s worth just getting out there and applying.

BryanBeshore 4y ago

Having done the merry go round of different languages, it also feels great gaining expertise in an individual language and to utilize new (release) capabilities of that the language.

thr0wawayf00 4y ago
Absolutely. Conversely, it's frustrating to deal with a build and release system that's subpar compared to what you're used to working with, but I recognize some folks probably feel that way about my preferred tools. That's just where I've chosen to invest my time I guess. I was shocked at how hellish compiling and releasing a large iOS app was compared to deploying a web service, not to mention setting up the development environment and installing dependencies.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Yep, if I never have to deal with an automated CI/CD pipeline for iOS again (especially trying to reliably run unit tests - the simulator is flaky as hell) I'll be very happy. I don't even mind the MacOS-only requirement so much (though it does suck), but Apple's tendency to constantly force breaking changes on you is just an endless source of pain (by force I mean, release to App Store not permitted unless you build with version X of Xcode, which requires version Y of MacOS which is incompatible with version just-about-anything-else or everything else you're using.)

rtlfe 4y ago

That's pretty excessive. I've switched languages whenever I get a new job, every 2-5 years. I think this is more what OP had in mind.

ipaddr 4y ago
How do you switch languages during a job search? Are you avoiding companies with language requirements (four years Ruby)? Do you run into language/framework tests and/or homework assignments in languages you are unfamiliar with?
- rtlfe 4y ago
  I've interviewed at probably 15+ companies over the last decade, and none of them had language requirements or tests. Honestly I see those things as red flags. If you can find somebody with good problem solving skills and proficiency in any language, they'll be able to pick up your language no problem.
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    "they'll be able to pick up your language no problem." That still takes time. If someone is already experienced in an (complex) ecosystem, he or she will be way more effective in it, than someone who has just general skills. I guess I am a very good problem solver. But if I suddenly would have to do a C++ project with all its footguns, I am not aware of (last time I coded in C++ was in university)? I would suck in it for quite a while. This would not be effective at all, unless I would want to change my skillset to the C++ ecosystem.
    - rtlfe 4y ago
      > That still takes time. Yes. I want to work somewhere that shows they're committed to the long term, not somewhere that's focused on how much I'll get done in my first week.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    I'm guessing that's not typical for most devs and most job openings. Recruiters in particular seem to assume they need to find devs experienced with particular stacks, and for companies who need to quickly re-fill roles after losing staff, a good dev with experience in the stack/ecosystem you've been working with is always going to get up to speed faster than one without that experience. I'd also say convincing hiring managers that specific libraries/ platforms/languages/tools that you've been using shouldn't be listed as "must have"'s in a JD is hard.

sys_64738 4y ago

> My boss would ask me to dive into another tool I don't really know and the cycle would repeat ad nauseum. There is power in saying No.

unnouinceput 4y ago
There is power in saying "Yes, for this price" too. Explain the problem and the damage to your mental health if you do that, hence the price.
- afarrell 4y ago
  Your first sentence is correct. Your second sentence would be better revised to "Explain the problem and the fact that the client will be signing on for a long timeline and high level of schedule-risk. Then work at a pace which does not damage your mental health."

zinodaur 4y ago

an edit I would make to > think of yourself as a problem solver, rather than a programmer of a specific language would be to > steer away from problems that are boring to you E.g., there are very cool programs being written in Objective C, so I wouldn't write off a job just because it was in Objective C

zerr 4y ago

Sounds like a dream job! No joke.

kevinmchugh 4y ago

There are organizations that generate forgotten apps that are basically used but unmaintained. These are tarpits for developers. You don't want to be the person they fling at every forgotten codebase. They tend to be sideshows - if they really brought in the money, or the users, the business would invest in them and have people who know the language. There's value in being able to go in, fix a little problem, and make things better for your customers. But you have to balance that against becoming the guy who works on the unimportant projects. That's real bad. If there's growth potential for the forgotten app, you have to get buy-in from the business and not just sideline yourself away from the things people care about. Often these tarpits were contractually mandated. One customer wants a particular integration, so a developer builds it, and it works for the customer and everything is fine until another customer comes along wanting a similar integration and now the original dev is gone.

sdoering 4y ago
I know from quite a few traditional corporations, especially banks that have very central old systems that they pay people enormous day rates to maintain. But the question would be if one wants to be the go to guy for keeping old cobol things running.
- szundi 4y ago
  The value of any other stuff you learn other than solving problems has half life. If you can be paid extra for Cobol stuff for a decade or two, then why not use this opportunity and get up to speed in 2-3 years after that. If you have just a bit of bad luck, you may have a carreer with no real deep involvement with anything, not even talking about the fact that the language is just one aspect of your productivity.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  You could call the general skill "software archaeology".
edgyquant 4y ago
Refactoring old codebases into something nice to work on is comfy though. It’s basically what I do in the startup world I just use less niche languages. Although I’d suspect there isn’t a lot of refactoring going on in some of those code bases you describe.

jjice 4y ago

> Coming from web dev, I used to volunteer to dive into a Objective C repo to fix some random bug in a mobile app The thing about this is that this isn't just a language change, this is an ecosystem change. It's one thing to go from writing Python based web apps to Ruby based ones, because web dev has a lot of concepts that will apply no matter the language. Objective C might be something you can pick up no problem, but having the learn all about mobile development and that ecosystem is a much larger task, and I could absolutely see that getting exhausting if you're hopping from web, to mobile, to desktop, to embedded, etc. Ecosystem switching requires a lot more of a knowledge shift than just a language does, IMO.

wizofaus 4y ago
I'd agree with that. I even think the difference between frontend JS development and backend JS development is bigger than, say, backend Java and JS development. But managers, even ones with tech backgrounds, tend to assume the language is the key skill. A good developer should be able to master a couple of different ecosystems given enough time but expecting them to constantly jump between them is never going to lead to great results.

Aperocky 4y ago

> contributes to poor code quality I have another perspective, I think code quality are pretty uniform across languages, either all of ones code quality is poor or it will be fine across all language one writes. Most of the code quality stems from logically dividing the building blocks and making it readable. Hence it should be logically traceable and uses the basics whenever possible. This is good, readable code. Obviously some languages demands greater knowledge (e.g. C, Haskell) to master and use appropriately but they are a minority.

wutbrodo 4y ago
I strongly disagree. It's very visible when someone is trying to write (eg) Python in C++ or vice versa, in a way that can substantially harm readability.

AlwaysRock 4y ago

Yeah I agree. I know growing and learning is the job. But how much am I going to use X in the future? I did one project in PHP. Just enough to learn I don't really like working in PHP. Is a few months of PHP experience useful in later job searches?

winternett 4y ago

I can't tell you how often a huge and expensive Oracle DB app design project turned into just emailing spreadsheets instead... That would get me fired.. -Senior Developers Everwhere. :P