6 ms·

This was uncalled for man.

rglullis 4y ago
Why is it ok to collectively hate bankers, people working in big tobacco, salesmen in big pharma and many other industries that we know for being damaging to society, but when it comes to Big Tech we suddenly think "it is uncalled for"? Facebook is a deplorable company and its leadership is known to have a completely broken moral compass. But why should we hold only the leadership accountable? It is the developers, the product managers, the biz dev people who are actually getting their hands dirty, and you can bet that no one is doing it against their will.
- JCharante 4y ago
  What's wrong with Facebook? I really like their features.
  - feanaro 4y ago
    Mostly the spying on people against their wishes part, then exploiting this data in commercial purposes. Even if you aren't a member, Facebook keeps a shadow profile on you, so it's next level surveillance.
- actually_a_dog 4y ago
  I agree. And, "just following orders" (i.e. "just doing his job") isn't a legal defense to following unlawful orders. Nor should it be a moral defense to doing unethical things just because there's a paycheck involved.
  - jjulius 4y ago
    Can you tell us OP's "orders" were, though? Because at this point you're just speculating and assuming the worst. Your comment about people working for unethical companies for a paycheck also comes off as classist and out of touch. Edit: Hell, they said "ex" engineer. For all we know, they could have very well been there early on, taken issue with what they saw and then left because of that. Yet you and at least two others are assuming the worst and suggesting that they never be allowed to integrate with regular society. Jesus.
    - actually_a_dog 4y ago
      Anyone who's been awake for the past 5 years knows how shitty and unethical a company Facebook is. If they'd been there since the beginning, they could have figured out how lets's say "flexible" Zuckerberg's ethics were. And there are plenty of companies that are ethically benign, if not doing real good in the world. To suggest that people should act ethically, even when money is involved, is not classist. And, if you think it is, consider what "class" a(n ex-) Facebook engineer is likely to fall into. (Hint: the one with the financial means to care about ethics.) And I will thank you very much to stop putting words in my mouth. I have not suggested that anyone not be able to reintegrate into society. I am, however, suggesting that they pay their dues back to society before doing so. Tell me: what acts do you feel are justified by "just following orders," and under what circumstances?
      - jjulius 4y ago
        Yet still not a single attempt to understand OP's perspective, actions there, time there, or reason for departure. Just an insistence on an immediate straight shot to, "Nope, they have dues that must be repaid no matter what". Got it. Edit: And again, I must emphasize nuance. People talented enough to work at a FAANG absolutely can have significant financial issues, outstanding debts, etc. that may make them prioritize finances above ethics. I am surprised that this continuously seems so lost on HN users.
        actually_a_dog 4y ago
        Not going to answer my direct questions to you, either, huh? Got it.
        jjulius 4y ago
        >Not going to answer my direct questions to you, either, huh? ... it was a single question, and you edited it in as I was responding.
        4y ago
- jjulius 4y ago
  I think it's a stretch to say that most people hate every single person working in those industries. We don't hate the tellers, we hate the people running the banks and fucking around with our money. We don't shit on Amazon warehouse employees, we shit on the people making their lives hell. In a similar sense, we don't know what this person's role was as a software engineer. It's one thing to discuss the morality of their employer with them, it's another thing to go straight for their jugular and write them out of society entirely just because their resume says, "Facebook". And, as I said in this same comment chain, I am incredibly "Fuck Facebook" as a whole. It would be great if every single person had the luxury of making employment decisions primarily based on moral code. The reality of life demonstrates that that is not always viable for everyone. Edit: Do we assume that all Starbucks employees, even the ones trying to unionize, are anti-union because that's the corporate stance?
  - rglullis 4y ago
    A bank teller is not involved in the implementation of the process and systems that define how banks operate. A software engineer is instrumental to how a company operates. > It would be great if every single person had the luxury of making employment decisions primarily based on moral code. We don't need to have "every" person in condition to make such choices, but there are plenty of people that can, and these people are failing us. If you are smart, educated, and have enough work ethic to get a job at Facebook as a software developer, you certainly have what it takes to work anywhere else.
    - jjulius 4y ago
      >A software engineer is instrumental to how a company operates. >If you are smart, educated, and have enough work ethic to get a job at Facebook as a software developer, you certainly have what it takes to work anywhere else. There is a lot to Facebook, and a lot of various internal and external software that requires SWEs. You lament that people in OP's position "are failing us" because they're not doing more to speak out about FB's bullshit, and that they are better-positioned to get a job elsewhere, yet I have only seen you spout negative rhetoric towards OP and make zero effort to understand more. You haven't bothered asking them what they worked on at FB, nor have you asked them why they are an ex FB engineer. You have no idea if they contributed to fucked up shit or if it's the fucked up shit that made them leave (isn't that departure what you want, after all?). Your general sentiment isn't wholly incorrect, it's your determination to kick nuance to the curb and paint everyone with a broad, negative brush that is the issue.

Why is it ok to collectively hate bankers, people working in big tobacco, salesmen in big pharma and many other industries that we know for being damaging to society, but when it comes to Big Tech we suddenly think "it is uncalled for"? Facebook is a deplorable company and its leadership is known to have a completely broken moral compass. But why should we hold only the leadership accountable? It is the developers, the product managers, the biz dev people who are actually getting their hands dirty, and you can bet that no one is doing it against their will.

JCharante 4y ago
What's wrong with Facebook? I really like their features.
- feanaro 4y ago
  Mostly the spying on people against their wishes part, then exploiting this data in commercial purposes. Even if you aren't a member, Facebook keeps a shadow profile on you, so it's next level surveillance.
actually_a_dog 4y ago
I agree. And, "just following orders" (i.e. "just doing his job") isn't a legal defense to following unlawful orders. Nor should it be a moral defense to doing unethical things just because there's a paycheck involved.
- jjulius 4y ago
  Can you tell us OP's "orders" were, though? Because at this point you're just speculating and assuming the worst. Your comment about people working for unethical companies for a paycheck also comes off as classist and out of touch. Edit: Hell, they said "ex" engineer. For all we know, they could have very well been there early on, taken issue with what they saw and then left because of that. Yet you and at least two others are assuming the worst and suggesting that they never be allowed to integrate with regular society. Jesus.
  - actually_a_dog 4y ago
    Anyone who's been awake for the past 5 years knows how shitty and unethical a company Facebook is. If they'd been there since the beginning, they could have figured out how lets's say "flexible" Zuckerberg's ethics were. And there are plenty of companies that are ethically benign, if not doing real good in the world. To suggest that people should act ethically, even when money is involved, is not classist. And, if you think it is, consider what "class" a(n ex-) Facebook engineer is likely to fall into. (Hint: the one with the financial means to care about ethics.) And I will thank you very much to stop putting words in my mouth. I have not suggested that anyone not be able to reintegrate into society. I am, however, suggesting that they pay their dues back to society before doing so. Tell me: what acts do you feel are justified by "just following orders," and under what circumstances?
    - jjulius 4y ago
      Yet still not a single attempt to understand OP's perspective, actions there, time there, or reason for departure. Just an insistence on an immediate straight shot to, "Nope, they have dues that must be repaid no matter what". Got it. Edit: And again, I must emphasize nuance. People talented enough to work at a FAANG absolutely can have significant financial issues, outstanding debts, etc. that may make them prioritize finances above ethics. I am surprised that this continuously seems so lost on HN users.
      - actually_a_dog 4y ago
        Not going to answer my direct questions to you, either, huh? Got it.
        jjulius 4y ago
        >Not going to answer my direct questions to you, either, huh? ... it was a single question, and you edited it in as I was responding.
        4y ago
jjulius 4y ago
I think it's a stretch to say that most people hate every single person working in those industries. We don't hate the tellers, we hate the people running the banks and fucking around with our money. We don't shit on Amazon warehouse employees, we shit on the people making their lives hell. In a similar sense, we don't know what this person's role was as a software engineer. It's one thing to discuss the morality of their employer with them, it's another thing to go straight for their jugular and write them out of society entirely just because their resume says, "Facebook". And, as I said in this same comment chain, I am incredibly "Fuck Facebook" as a whole. It would be great if every single person had the luxury of making employment decisions primarily based on moral code. The reality of life demonstrates that that is not always viable for everyone. Edit: Do we assume that all Starbucks employees, even the ones trying to unionize, are anti-union because that's the corporate stance?
- rglullis 4y ago
  A bank teller is not involved in the implementation of the process and systems that define how banks operate. A software engineer is instrumental to how a company operates. > It would be great if every single person had the luxury of making employment decisions primarily based on moral code. We don't need to have "every" person in condition to make such choices, but there are plenty of people that can, and these people are failing us. If you are smart, educated, and have enough work ethic to get a job at Facebook as a software developer, you certainly have what it takes to work anywhere else.
  - jjulius 4y ago
    >A software engineer is instrumental to how a company operates. >If you are smart, educated, and have enough work ethic to get a job at Facebook as a software developer, you certainly have what it takes to work anywhere else. There is a lot to Facebook, and a lot of various internal and external software that requires SWEs. You lament that people in OP's position "are failing us" because they're not doing more to speak out about FB's bullshit, and that they are better-positioned to get a job elsewhere, yet I have only seen you spout negative rhetoric towards OP and make zero effort to understand more. You haven't bothered asking them what they worked on at FB, nor have you asked them why they are an ex FB engineer. You have no idea if they contributed to fucked up shit or if it's the fucked up shit that made them leave (isn't that departure what you want, after all?). Your general sentiment isn't wholly incorrect, it's your determination to kick nuance to the curb and paint everyone with a broad, negative brush that is the issue.