7 ms·

When someone says "that works out of the box" what I hear is "I don't want to spend time customizing things to work better for me", which is fine, but surprisin

by 098799 4y ago

When someone says "that works out of the box" what I hear is "I don't want to spend time customizing things to work better for me", which is fine, but surprising coming from someone who claims to have used tiling window managers.

Darmody 4y ago
To me it means: I don't have to spend a whole week tweaking stuff so the DE won't get break my workflow with annoying things. Which then translates to bugs here and there, inconsistency and may other problems. And while Gnome is a pain in the *s sometimes because they remove features, it's still better than the alternatives to me.
- nik5 4y ago
  Why would you spend whole week, if you can copy the configs from older machines?
  - Darmody 4y ago
    Because some tweaks can't just be saved and restored later.
    - behnamoh 4y ago
      which is one of Gnome's problems. I don't want to install extensions only to realize they won't work on the new Gnome version.
      - Darmody 4y ago
        But installing the 3 or 4 extensions that I need takes no more than 2 minutes. I don't have to tweak anything else.
zvmaz 4y ago
It means: "I don't want to spend time customizing things that may not even work better for me." I acknowledge that some people like crafting their own computing environment[1], and it can be really interesting and rewarding , but some people like to work on other things, or simply lose interest in fiddling indefinitely with config files and all (like I have). For the latter, there's Gnome. [1] https://www.youtube.com/c/SystemCrafters https://www.youtube.com/c/SystemCrafters
alpaca128 4y ago
I also "claim" to have used tiling WMs (in fact I'm using one right now) and Gnome is my favorite DE as well. I've tried pretty much everything and in the end it doesn't matter what you use as long as you can define useful keybindings. And imho dynamic tiling is the wrong approach. Automatic rearrangement of windows never works well in real situations that just don't fit a small selection of fixed layouts. Not sure why static tilers are so rare, but Gnome offers static tiling and is very polished, so I guess that's why I like it.
- bandrami 4y ago
  Not to be pedantic, but doesn't Gnome also tile?
  - uncletaco 4y ago
    > Not sure why static tilers are so rare, but Gnome offers static tiling and is very polished, so I guess that's why I like it.
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    A tiling window manager is one which by default automatically assigns each newly created non-dialogue windows to a non-overlapping share of the screen according to a set of rules. A lot of environments have a function to relocate the focused window to a predefined portion of the screen. For example left and right half. This makes it a stacking environment with limited tiling features.
2143 4y ago
> "I don't want to spend time customizing things to work better for me" That's me. I have tried every major DE, and something or the other is not right with all of them! I used to use gnome with a lot of customizations. Over the past couple of years I decided to adapt my workflow and muscle memory to what's provided by default. Works well for me now, even though it was a little awkward at first. I'm currently using gnome with no customizations. I'm not claiming gnome is the best DE or anything. I also really like XFCE btw.
johnchristopher 4y ago
> but surprising coming from someone who claims to have used tiling window managers. Why are you using the verb "claim" if not to throw doubt over op's word ? > When someone says "that works out of the box" what I hear is "I don't want to spend time customizing things to work better for me", I call that putting words in people's mouth.
petepete 4y ago
I used Awesome WM for years but now use GNOME exclusively. It looks great, works intuitively, isn't resource heavy and with Wayland is super smooth. I used to tile terminal windows but now do everything in tmux. I spend 95% of my day in either browser or terminal.
- johnchristopher 4y ago
  Is there a workflow based around a main container and fixed layouts in tmux ?
  - petepete 4y ago
    Sorry I missed this reply. I tend to usually have full window panes for most tasks and then introduce others ad hoc when necessary, usually running scripts or testing code I'm working on in a repl. I don't do anything too fancy.
SebastianKra 4y ago
The core discussion here is: "how much should the computer adapt to the user vs how much should the user adapt to the computer". On the one hand, the benefit of customizing a system for yourself should be obvious. On the other hand, adapting yourself to a system also means adapting to other people. This allows improving the shared understanding of how computers should be used: - Designs can push users to more efficient workflows. - New features, use-cases and apps can be developed based on shared assumptions. - Other developers can integrate with or expand on the existing designs. eg: MacOS launchers [1] build on various system features. In IntelliJ, I regularly discover new functionality that I wouldn't even know existed had I used a text editor with extensions. Customise your system too much, and you cut yourself off from this "conversation". Perhaps this is why some users still live in heavily customised terminal environments, despite massive improvements to GUIs [2]. [1] Raycast, Alfred, Launchbar [2] https://capiche.com/e/consumer-dev-tools-command-palette https://capiche.com/e/consumer-dev-tools-command-palette
seba_dos1 4y ago
I think it's more like "I don't want to be overwhelmed with lots of decisions right at the start, but I want an ability to change things incrementally to serve my needs as I go". Which is why I like Plasma too for its out-of-box readiness and configurability.

by 098799 4y ago

Darmody 4y ago

To me it means: I don't have to spend a whole week tweaking stuff so the DE won't get break my workflow with annoying things. Which then translates to bugs here and there, inconsistency and may other problems. And while Gnome is a pain in the *s sometimes because they remove features, it's still better than the alternatives to me.

nik5 4y ago
Why would you spend whole week, if you can copy the configs from older machines?
- Darmody 4y ago
  Because some tweaks can't just be saved and restored later.
  - behnamoh 4y ago
    which is one of Gnome's problems. I don't want to install extensions only to realize they won't work on the new Gnome version.
    - Darmody 4y ago
      But installing the 3 or 4 extensions that I need takes no more than 2 minutes. I don't have to tweak anything else.

zvmaz 4y ago

It means: "I don't want to spend time customizing things that may not even work better for me." I acknowledge that some people like crafting their own computing environment[1], and it can be really interesting and rewarding , but some people like to work on other things, or simply lose interest in fiddling indefinitely with config files and all (like I have). For the latter, there's Gnome. [1] https://www.youtube.com/c/SystemCrafters https://www.youtube.com/c/SystemCrafters

alpaca128 4y ago

I also "claim" to have used tiling WMs (in fact I'm using one right now) and Gnome is my favorite DE as well. I've tried pretty much everything and in the end it doesn't matter what you use as long as you can define useful keybindings. And imho dynamic tiling is the wrong approach. Automatic rearrangement of windows never works well in real situations that just don't fit a small selection of fixed layouts. Not sure why static tilers are so rare, but Gnome offers static tiling and is very polished, so I guess that's why I like it.

bandrami 4y ago
Not to be pedantic, but doesn't Gnome also tile?
- uncletaco 4y ago
  > Not sure why static tilers are so rare, but Gnome offers static tiling and is very polished, so I guess that's why I like it.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  A tiling window manager is one which by default automatically assigns each newly created non-dialogue windows to a non-overlapping share of the screen according to a set of rules. A lot of environments have a function to relocate the focused window to a predefined portion of the screen. For example left and right half. This makes it a stacking environment with limited tiling features.

2143 4y ago

> "I don't want to spend time customizing things to work better for me" That's me. I have tried every major DE, and something or the other is not right with all of them! I used to use gnome with a lot of customizations. Over the past couple of years I decided to adapt my workflow and muscle memory to what's provided by default. Works well for me now, even though it was a little awkward at first. I'm currently using gnome with no customizations. I'm not claiming gnome is the best DE or anything. I also really like XFCE btw.

johnchristopher 4y ago

> but surprising coming from someone who claims to have used tiling window managers. Why are you using the verb "claim" if not to throw doubt over op's word ? > When someone says "that works out of the box" what I hear is "I don't want to spend time customizing things to work better for me", I call that putting words in people's mouth.

petepete 4y ago

I used Awesome WM for years but now use GNOME exclusively. It looks great, works intuitively, isn't resource heavy and with Wayland is super smooth. I used to tile terminal windows but now do everything in tmux. I spend 95% of my day in either browser or terminal.

johnchristopher 4y ago
Is there a workflow based around a main container and fixed layouts in tmux ?
- petepete 4y ago
  Sorry I missed this reply. I tend to usually have full window panes for most tasks and then introduce others ad hoc when necessary, usually running scripts or testing code I'm working on in a repl. I don't do anything too fancy.

SebastianKra 4y ago

The core discussion here is: "how much should the computer adapt to the user vs how much should the user adapt to the computer". On the one hand, the benefit of customizing a system for yourself should be obvious. On the other hand, adapting yourself to a system also means adapting to other people. This allows improving the shared understanding of how computers should be used: - Designs can push users to more efficient workflows. - New features, use-cases and apps can be developed based on shared assumptions. - Other developers can integrate with or expand on the existing designs. eg: MacOS launchers [1] build on various system features. In IntelliJ, I regularly discover new functionality that I wouldn't even know existed had I used a text editor with extensions. Customise your system too much, and you cut yourself off from this "conversation". Perhaps this is why some users still live in heavily customised terminal environments, despite massive improvements to GUIs [2]. [1] Raycast, Alfred, Launchbar [2] https://capiche.com/e/consumer-dev-tools-command-palette https://capiche.com/e/consumer-dev-tools-command-palette

seba_dos1 4y ago

I think it's more like "I don't want to be overwhelmed with lots of decisions right at the start, but I want an ability to change things incrementally to serve my needs as I go". Which is why I like Plasma too for its out-of-box readiness and configurability.