8 ms·

We're living in an era where expert level information is easily accessible on virtually every subject on mobiles devices. The reliance for an elder's tradition

by tyjen 4y ago

We're living in an era where expert level information is easily accessible on virtually every subject on mobiles devices. The reliance for an elder's traditional wisdom is collapsing, accelerated by the obsoleteness of their information relative to a rapidly-changing society. It turns out that Grandma's apple pie wasn't that great, or Grandpa's advice on job hunting isn't a very accurate, or helpful, in today's job market. Plus, add in the complication of newer generations moving away from their family's home area with greater frequency, decreasing contact time between parents and children, and grandparents and grandchildren. I think the weird transitional part still lies ahead, when people born after the internet age become elders. Currently, our elders lived in a time where their elders were valued, so they're met with a hostility that didn't exist for their elders in situations where they probably expect respect or appreciation. It must feel frustrating. Negative aspects aside, I believe there will still be value in elder wisdom. Not necessarily through traditional knowledge transference on subjects evolving day after day, but on how to navigate the stresses of a modern life, developing/recognizing healthy interpersonal relationships, and adapting to change. Transferable life skill knowledge that isn't necessarily taught in school or from busy parents. This can be passed on to grandchildren or mentoring children growing up in challenging situations via volunteerism. But, like the author pointed out, reliably tapping into this seems challenging.

oneoff786 4y ago
My grandfather was a poor Asian immigrant who achieved his dream of moving to America. He died in a hospital bitterly refusing to be treated by Black hospital staff. My grandmother in law is a sweet lady who also shared the opinion that mixed race marriages are unnatural. I am mixed race but I’m one of the good ones. Social norms have changed extremely fast. In addition to the lack of ability to interact with things like the internet, it’s so difficult to see value in anyone’s insights when you get nuggets like this.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  In my family, all the elders apparently became doctors around the ages of 50 to 60, but without having to do any of the reading or working or math credentialed doctors have to do. It is also funny seeing them grapple with daughter in laws having leverage now that they all earn hefty incomes and have no dependency on the elders.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    They sound indian
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- tyjen 4y ago
  Yep, I don't believe many would be the quintessential ideal candidate to extract wisdom and most would yield sporadic valuable insights, particularly if they're not adapting well into their advanced years and excessively in discord with changing social norms. It could be a matter of parsing through insights to separate the valuable from the archaic.
- tomc1985 4y ago
  Don't you think that's more a matter of your attitude than whether these people are effectively worthless? “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” doesn't seem to be fashionable nowadays but it's a valuable piece of wisdom. Cancelling folks with this "lalalala I can't hear you!" attitude, against someone who offends a few sensibilities, is the problem here. People are imperfect, don't be so closed-minded.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Well these educated minds haven’t updated their priors in 60 years. If your advice holds true, perhaps there is something we can infer.
- roenxi 4y ago
  > it’s so difficult to see value in anyone’s insights when you get nuggets like this. We're made of the same stuff as our parents. Both literally and metaphorically. I hope we are including the people with the new norms as "anyone", in time they're going to be just as outdated and embarrassing as every other generation's norms.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Maybe. It’s possible that the interconnectivity of the internet will cause future generations to be less rigid. One can hope.
sseagull 4y ago
> We're living in an era where expert level information is easily accessible on virtually every subject on mobiles devices. Sort of agree, on some subjects anyway (like apple pie). However, much of that expert information comes lack of context. Experts talking to experts leave lots of context out because it is common knowledge (among them). An uncountable number of people have worried themselves after diagnosing themselves with illnesses they don't have, or have improperly repaired their car or house after watching a few youtube videos and figuring that was enough. Imagine someone reading a new CS article on some new sorting algorithm that works with certain special cases under certain constraints, and coming to you asking to replace all your sorting functions because "this one article said it is faster". That is what everyone does when they go to some expert and say "I read online..." or "I read this journal article where..." Context is extremely important in pretty much everything we do; there are very few "universal truths".
spangry 4y ago
I think the value of elder wisdom is not problem specific, but rather problem-class specific. Older people repeatedly encounter various classes of problems throughout their life, and eventually they discern a generalised solution or pattern. It's like an elder programmer imparting architectural or software design patterns to a younger programmer. The elder programmer doesn't need to know the programming language the younger programmer is using; they only need to recognise that the problem the younger programmer is trying to solve belongs to a class of problems that they know a pattern for. True, younger people will always face unique problems in their life due to changes in society, but many important aspects of life and society, human nature for example, don't change much from one generation to the next. Elder wisdom from your direct genetic relatives (e.g. grandparents) is particularly useful, because they share personality traits with you and know from experience how those traits interact with certain classes of problems. I think tapping into this is simply a matter of younger people bringing their problems to their elders and asking for advice.
batch12 4y ago
I agree with your last paragraph. I think there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. I understand wisdom as knowledge gained through experience. Sometimes experience can't be distilled into simple fact and is only really understood through repeated application.
wintermutestwin 4y ago
Your post seems to be highlighting technical skills as an area where modern people don't benefit from elder knowledge. As a GenXer who started on the Commodore PET at 12, I see both sides of this: the Boomers generally suck, and yet, a fair percentage of millennials (my own kids included) have only basic computer literacy (except when it comes to phones/tablets). I agree with your point that there is potential value in elder wisdom when it comes to soft skills and general EQ. And yet, the Boomers generally suck (particularly when looked at through the lens of their ability to resist media influence) and millennials (and Y/Alpha) seem to have started much further along the journey than previous gens. I guess my conclusion is that subsequent generations should be yelling at boomers to get off our lawns and only buy your kid touch-based computing devices. /s
wslh 4y ago
Almost completely disagree, there are invariants (or quasi-invariants...) in life that make elder wisdom great. Some of these invariants are the experience of social and political power [1] and repeated crisis. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political)
jancsika 4y ago
> It turns out that Grandma's apple pie wasn't that great Maybe. But I've personally watched my grandmother reverse-engineer in realtime a recipe merely from taking a bite of someone else's pie. And that was a common feat used by a critical mass of grandmas to come up with their pies in the pre-digital era. The fact that I can't install Debian on the most recent Iphone leads me to believe that there are a lot of Hackers who could learn something by having deeper conversations with their grandmothers.
- alar44 4y ago
  It doesn't take an elder to do that. Anyone who cooks frequently can reverse engineer recipes.
  - SuperQue 4y ago
    Pretty much this. Although it does take some good physical senses to really pull out the spices/herbs in some things.
koolba 4y ago
One of the problems facing every generation of young people is not understanding the level of wisdom of their elders. You truly don’t know the wealth of experience to which you have access till well after you’ve achieved it or lost it. Apt quote from Mark Twain: > When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  Maybe? Most of the "knowledge" my elder neighbours seem to give me is about lawn care. How to have a perfectly cut, perfectly green, weed-free, bug free lawn As if that is something worth achieving. Meanwhile I'm planting clover in my grass, hanging up mason bee houses, and avoiding RoundUp like the plague. He mows several times a week, sprays weeds with poison, and waters liberally to make it super green. What a waste of time, effort, and clean water.
  - rufus_foreman 4y ago
    >> How to have a perfectly cut, perfectly green, weed-free, bug free lawn That's pretty much what I'm after with my lawn. What's his advice on bugs?
rgrieselhuber 4y ago
Knowledge != Wisdom
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
citizenpaul 4y ago
I think my reality is probably the same for many. "Elders" suck and most fail miserably at providing anything close to sage advice. I remember my grandpa and father giving me car advice that was probably 20 years out of date when they were telling it to me. Fortunately reading a basics of modern car 20 page article catapulted my knowledge beyond anything they could offer. Despite being over twice my age both never bothered to update their information on a relatively simple topic. I disagree with your last point as well. Again most "Elders" are terrible. The most common advice I got from elders all over the place.... "You will understand when you are older." yeah thanks....thats why I was asking so I don't have to wait. I'm pretty sure most people have similar experiences to me and its sorta provable. It's why nursing homes are overflowing with useless old people that are un-visited and ignored en mass.. Its simple, if they had any value people would come to visit them, but they don't. I'm not saying its their(elders) job or anything. Just don't expect respect for living and not dying early. I already provide better advice to people younger than me than the vast majority of people double or triple my age can. Most people suck, with the internet it is easy to leapfrog the majority of so called elders since they never really tried in life anyway, most boomers just fell upward in a booming economy and don't even have soft or navigating life skills. Yeah I don't really care much for old people if you can tell. However I do wish I've had some positive experiences from them but so far my entire life has proven otherwise.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by tyjen 4y ago

oneoff786 4y ago

My grandfather was a poor Asian immigrant who achieved his dream of moving to America. He died in a hospital bitterly refusing to be treated by Black hospital staff. My grandmother in law is a sweet lady who also shared the opinion that mixed race marriages are unnatural. I am mixed race but I’m one of the good ones. Social norms have changed extremely fast. In addition to the lack of ability to interact with things like the internet, it’s so difficult to see value in anyone’s insights when you get nuggets like this.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
In my family, all the elders apparently became doctors around the ages of 50 to 60, but without having to do any of the reading or working or math credentialed doctors have to do. It is also funny seeing them grapple with daughter in laws having leverage now that they all earn hefty incomes and have no dependency on the elders.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  They sound indian
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
tyjen 4y ago
Yep, I don't believe many would be the quintessential ideal candidate to extract wisdom and most would yield sporadic valuable insights, particularly if they're not adapting well into their advanced years and excessively in discord with changing social norms. It could be a matter of parsing through insights to separate the valuable from the archaic.
tomc1985 4y ago
Don't you think that's more a matter of your attitude than whether these people are effectively worthless? “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” doesn't seem to be fashionable nowadays but it's a valuable piece of wisdom. Cancelling folks with this "lalalala I can't hear you!" attitude, against someone who offends a few sensibilities, is the problem here. People are imperfect, don't be so closed-minded.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Well these educated minds haven’t updated their priors in 60 years. If your advice holds true, perhaps there is something we can infer.
roenxi 4y ago
> it’s so difficult to see value in anyone’s insights when you get nuggets like this. We're made of the same stuff as our parents. Both literally and metaphorically. I hope we are including the people with the new norms as "anyone", in time they're going to be just as outdated and embarrassing as every other generation's norms.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Maybe. It’s possible that the interconnectivity of the internet will cause future generations to be less rigid. One can hope.

sseagull 4y ago

> We're living in an era where expert level information is easily accessible on virtually every subject on mobiles devices. Sort of agree, on some subjects anyway (like apple pie). However, much of that expert information comes lack of context. Experts talking to experts leave lots of context out because it is common knowledge (among them). An uncountable number of people have worried themselves after diagnosing themselves with illnesses they don't have, or have improperly repaired their car or house after watching a few youtube videos and figuring that was enough. Imagine someone reading a new CS article on some new sorting algorithm that works with certain special cases under certain constraints, and coming to you asking to replace all your sorting functions because "this one article said it is faster". That is what everyone does when they go to some expert and say "I read online..." or "I read this journal article where..." Context is extremely important in pretty much everything we do; there are very few "universal truths".

spangry 4y ago

I think the value of elder wisdom is not problem specific, but rather problem-class specific. Older people repeatedly encounter various classes of problems throughout their life, and eventually they discern a generalised solution or pattern. It's like an elder programmer imparting architectural or software design patterns to a younger programmer. The elder programmer doesn't need to know the programming language the younger programmer is using; they only need to recognise that the problem the younger programmer is trying to solve belongs to a class of problems that they know a pattern for. True, younger people will always face unique problems in their life due to changes in society, but many important aspects of life and society, human nature for example, don't change much from one generation to the next. Elder wisdom from your direct genetic relatives (e.g. grandparents) is particularly useful, because they share personality traits with you and know from experience how those traits interact with certain classes of problems. I think tapping into this is simply a matter of younger people bringing their problems to their elders and asking for advice.

batch12 4y ago

I agree with your last paragraph. I think there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. I understand wisdom as knowledge gained through experience. Sometimes experience can't be distilled into simple fact and is only really understood through repeated application.

wintermutestwin 4y ago

Your post seems to be highlighting technical skills as an area where modern people don't benefit from elder knowledge. As a GenXer who started on the Commodore PET at 12, I see both sides of this: the Boomers generally suck, and yet, a fair percentage of millennials (my own kids included) have only basic computer literacy (except when it comes to phones/tablets). I agree with your point that there is potential value in elder wisdom when it comes to soft skills and general EQ. And yet, the Boomers generally suck (particularly when looked at through the lens of their ability to resist media influence) and millennials (and Y/Alpha) seem to have started much further along the journey than previous gens. I guess my conclusion is that subsequent generations should be yelling at boomers to get off our lawns and only buy your kid touch-based computing devices. /s

wslh 4y ago

Almost completely disagree, there are invariants (or quasi-invariants...) in life that make elder wisdom great. Some of these invariants are the experience of social and political power [1] and repeated crisis. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political)

jancsika 4y ago

> It turns out that Grandma's apple pie wasn't that great Maybe. But I've personally watched my grandmother reverse-engineer in realtime a recipe merely from taking a bite of someone else's pie. And that was a common feat used by a critical mass of grandmas to come up with their pies in the pre-digital era. The fact that I can't install Debian on the most recent Iphone leads me to believe that there are a lot of Hackers who could learn something by having deeper conversations with their grandmothers.

alar44 4y ago
It doesn't take an elder to do that. Anyone who cooks frequently can reverse engineer recipes.
- SuperQue 4y ago
  Pretty much this. Although it does take some good physical senses to really pull out the spices/herbs in some things.

koolba 4y ago

One of the problems facing every generation of young people is not understanding the level of wisdom of their elders. You truly don’t know the wealth of experience to which you have access till well after you’ve achieved it or lost it. Apt quote from Mark Twain: > When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.

bluefirebrand 4y ago
Maybe? Most of the "knowledge" my elder neighbours seem to give me is about lawn care. How to have a perfectly cut, perfectly green, weed-free, bug free lawn As if that is something worth achieving. Meanwhile I'm planting clover in my grass, hanging up mason bee houses, and avoiding RoundUp like the plague. He mows several times a week, sprays weeds with poison, and waters liberally to make it super green. What a waste of time, effort, and clean water.
- rufus_foreman 4y ago
  >> How to have a perfectly cut, perfectly green, weed-free, bug free lawn That's pretty much what I'm after with my lawn. What's his advice on bugs?

rgrieselhuber 4y ago

Knowledge != Wisdom

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

citizenpaul 4y ago

I think my reality is probably the same for many. "Elders" suck and most fail miserably at providing anything close to sage advice. I remember my grandpa and father giving me car advice that was probably 20 years out of date when they were telling it to me. Fortunately reading a basics of modern car 20 page article catapulted my knowledge beyond anything they could offer. Despite being over twice my age both never bothered to update their information on a relatively simple topic. I disagree with your last point as well. Again most "Elders" are terrible. The most common advice I got from elders all over the place.... "You will understand when you are older." yeah thanks....thats why I was asking so I don't have to wait. I'm pretty sure most people have similar experiences to me and its sorta provable. It's why nursing homes are overflowing with useless old people that are un-visited and ignored en mass.. Its simple, if they had any value people would come to visit them, but they don't. I'm not saying its their(elders) job or anything. Just don't expect respect for living and not dying early. I already provide better advice to people younger than me than the vast majority of people double or triple my age can. Most people suck, with the internet it is easy to leapfrog the majority of so called elders since they never really tried in life anyway, most boomers just fell upward in a booming economy and don't even have soft or navigating life skills. Yeah I don't really care much for old people if you can tell. However I do wish I've had some positive experiences from them but so far my entire life has proven otherwise.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]