4 ms·

As much as I'd like to try KDE again after so many years - I can't really bring myself to. All UI elements in all tools\popups\etc are all over the place. KDE

by konart 4y ago

As much as I'd like to try KDE again after so many years - I can't really bring myself to. All UI elements in all tools\popups\etc are all over the place. KDE is a great engineering project without any thought (sorry, just a personal opinion here) given about visual aesthetics.

jraph 4y ago
I feel like they are doing so many things right, including on the visual side, I can't possibly conceive they don't give any thought on this. Actually I don't even need to give a feeling, I can just list some links where you can notice how they take care of this aspect: - https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved/design https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved/design - https://develop.kde.org/hig https://develop.kde.org/hig (the human interface guidelines) - https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved/design/Breeze https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved/design/Breeze Frankly, read through their guidelines. And that's not even all, regular design decisions are publicly made on the bug tracking system and the mailing lists. A lot of care is given on this aspect. There are hints on it on Nate's blog too. That's not a matter of personal opinion to be sorry about (?!) at this point. It's just plain wrong. That these decisions are good at all, or lacking, is another thing, and that you don't like these decisions is also another thing. On this last thing, it's your taste, nobody can argue with this. Now that everything seems out of place is probably a matter of habits too. But KDE does not "click" for everybody, and it's fine, as much as I would like it to spread more. Specific constructive feedback from the many people like you, for who KDE does not click, might help a lot.
- konart 4y ago
  >Frankly, read through their guidelines. Frankly, why? I can just launch any of KDE apps and see how it looks. For example (screenshot is not take by me): https://www.debugpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/KDE-Plasma-5.25-Accent-Colour-Change-Based-on-wallpaper.jpg https://www.debugpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/KDE-Pl... How is this any good? The left (sidebar?) part and the right part (content?) are not aligned, the right part has all its controls placed without any concern about the looks. This is literally "okay we need the user to chose color at first, so we are going to put color picker at the top-center because it is hella important and then we a re going to place two rows of buttons at the bottom, because we need this preview window in the middle". >Specific constructive feedback from the many people like you, for who KDE does not click, might help a lot. I've tried. All I got was "go use macOS or Gnome then". KDE may have great guidelines, but... it's not for me for sure. I loved all those buttons and customisations back when I was 20. Right now I what an opinionated (?) UI, that I don't need to customise but still get what I need (80% of what I need is fine) for less than 1% of my time. General OS should have a UI that is simple and clean enough for my grandmother to understand and use. Without guidelines. Gnome, as much as I don't like it's table-like spaced UI, does a better job right now.
  - jraph 4y ago
    > Frankly, why? I was answering to your statement that they don't put any thought on visual design. These guidelines are part of their thoughts about this. These guidelines are not for your grandmother to read, unless she is a KDE developer. Gnome also has human interface guidelines [1]. They also put a lot of thoughts in their UIs. Now, maybe this particular screen could use some improvements (though I don't see how in the screenshot you link the right part is not aligned with the left part, there's a visible horizontal line materializing this alignment by the way), and many others too. I don't think this one is that bad. Anyway, you don't need to visit this screen and tweaks the settings in it if you don't need this kind of customization. The defaults are descent. Gnome probably does not even have settings for this (and that's fine). That does not take anything out of your feedback, that's the kind of stuff KDE developers need. Overall my point is, you don't like design choices of KDE, or that they haven't managed to simplify everything / fix visual bugs yet, I can't argue with this. I understand your stance on the fact UIs should be opinionated and choose for you. That's a different philosophy that I car hear. Just, do not state they haven't put thoughts on this, because that's false. [1] https://developer.gnome.org/hig/ https://developer.gnome.org/hig/
    - konart 4y ago
      > Just, do not state they haven't put thoughts on this, because that's false. Okay, I can agree on that. I'll just have to agree that we (KDE devs and I) do not share the same views or philosophy regarding what should a modern UI be like.

by konart 4y ago

jraph 4y ago

I feel like they are doing so many things right, including on the visual side, I can't possibly conceive they don't give any thought on this. Actually I don't even need to give a feeling, I can just list some links where you can notice how they take care of this aspect: - https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved/design https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved/design - https://develop.kde.org/hig https://develop.kde.org/hig (the human interface guidelines) - https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved/design/Breeze https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved/design/Breeze Frankly, read through their guidelines. And that's not even all, regular design decisions are publicly made on the bug tracking system and the mailing lists. A lot of care is given on this aspect. There are hints on it on Nate's blog too. That's not a matter of personal opinion to be sorry about (?!) at this point. It's just plain wrong. That these decisions are good at all, or lacking, is another thing, and that you don't like these decisions is also another thing. On this last thing, it's your taste, nobody can argue with this. Now that everything seems out of place is probably a matter of habits too. But KDE does not "click" for everybody, and it's fine, as much as I would like it to spread more. Specific constructive feedback from the many people like you, for who KDE does not click, might help a lot.

konart 4y ago
>Frankly, read through their guidelines. Frankly, why? I can just launch any of KDE apps and see how it looks. For example (screenshot is not take by me): https://www.debugpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/KDE-Plasma-5.25-Accent-Colour-Change-Based-on-wallpaper.jpg https://www.debugpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/KDE-Pl... How is this any good? The left (sidebar?) part and the right part (content?) are not aligned, the right part has all its controls placed without any concern about the looks. This is literally "okay we need the user to chose color at first, so we are going to put color picker at the top-center because it is hella important and then we a re going to place two rows of buttons at the bottom, because we need this preview window in the middle". >Specific constructive feedback from the many people like you, for who KDE does not click, might help a lot. I've tried. All I got was "go use macOS or Gnome then". KDE may have great guidelines, but... it's not for me for sure. I loved all those buttons and customisations back when I was 20. Right now I what an opinionated (?) UI, that I don't need to customise but still get what I need (80% of what I need is fine) for less than 1% of my time. General OS should have a UI that is simple and clean enough for my grandmother to understand and use. Without guidelines. Gnome, as much as I don't like it's table-like spaced UI, does a better job right now.
- jraph 4y ago
  > Frankly, why? I was answering to your statement that they don't put any thought on visual design. These guidelines are part of their thoughts about this. These guidelines are not for your grandmother to read, unless she is a KDE developer. Gnome also has human interface guidelines [1]. They also put a lot of thoughts in their UIs. Now, maybe this particular screen could use some improvements (though I don't see how in the screenshot you link the right part is not aligned with the left part, there's a visible horizontal line materializing this alignment by the way), and many others too. I don't think this one is that bad. Anyway, you don't need to visit this screen and tweaks the settings in it if you don't need this kind of customization. The defaults are descent. Gnome probably does not even have settings for this (and that's fine). That does not take anything out of your feedback, that's the kind of stuff KDE developers need. Overall my point is, you don't like design choices of KDE, or that they haven't managed to simplify everything / fix visual bugs yet, I can't argue with this. I understand your stance on the fact UIs should be opinionated and choose for you. That's a different philosophy that I car hear. Just, do not state they haven't put thoughts on this, because that's false. [1] https://developer.gnome.org/hig/ https://developer.gnome.org/hig/
  - konart 4y ago
    > Just, do not state they haven't put thoughts on this, because that's false. Okay, I can agree on that. I'll just have to agree that we (KDE devs and I) do not share the same views or philosophy regarding what should a modern UI be like.