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I worked in senior management for a “successful” makerspace and have intimate knowledge of how difficult they are to both run and make profitable. If they are p

I worked in senior management for a “successful” makerspace and have intimate knowledge of how difficult they are to both run and make profitable. If they are profitable, they tend to operate on razor thin margins. It’s sad because they also tend to produce value disproportionate to their cost, providing real opportunity for people to learn hands-on skills, make products, and start businesses. I’ve seen many lives transformed by having access to tools and a community who know how to support their use. It seems most people start them because it sounds fun. And from the people I’ve talked to, for a while it is fun. The community swoops in the provide free labor and support and it all feels magical. But once this fades and the reality of the challenge sets in, it becomes less fun, less community-centric, and requires serious business chops. You are essentially running 3 businesses. Customer service, manufacturing, and education. You really need to understand the fundamentals of business to make this work. Even then it might fail. If I remember right, tech shop was well into the 8 figures in debt when they went under. Many other spaces have come and gone, too. I also just moved to Sacramento and toured the Hackerlab 1 week before this announcement. It’ll be back in some way, shape, or form, so keep an eye out for that. I’ll be talking with the community over the coming weeks and trying to sort out what the opportunity is. If anyone is considering starting a space or has questions, feel free to reach out. My contact info is in my bio.

sokoloff 4y ago
> It’s sad because they also tend to produce value disproportionate to their cost, providing real opportunity for people to learn hands-on skills, make products, and start businesses. If this thesis is true, I wonder why so many hacker/maker-spaces struggle to make ends meet. Is it that the people who are receiving this value don't see (or can't correctly estimate) the value? Or that they see it but due to circumstances can't currently pay for it?
- marcinzm 4y ago
  When people start the short term value provided is low so they will not pay a lot. When people have acquired those skills they find other places are better to utilize those skills than the hacker/maker-space so they will not pay a lot. They'll have the tools at their new job, buy the specific ones they use or join a more professional workspace that has them.
- sliceform 4y ago
  I largely agree with the other reply here. The value increases as the users knowledge of tools, techniques, and community increases. This, however, takes a substantial amount of time. Most people simple aren’t willing or are unable to pay for the investment. I disagree that people leave to guilds or build out their own space, except when they’ve outgrown the current space (which is so rare I can count the number of people on 1 hand). I can’t recall anyone leaving to a guild. A few people did go into the trades and took good jobs, eventually leaving. The cheap trinket market is saturated and tough to crack, making it difficult for small makers to get a footing. It is possible, but it takes a fair bit of marketing/sales knowledge to get it rolling. I coached many early stage entrepreneurs who thought their stickers and laser etched boxes would make them a living. Unfortunately, they were usually not able to capture the long term value of the space and we’re gone within 2 months. I think there’s a quality to price ratio problem for makers. Their specialized skillset which takes years to master is simply not worth that much to most clients. It is hard for clients to justify paying $1500 for a desk when you can get something that works and looks okay for $200 from IKEA or target. Maybe I’m wrong, but these are the things I’ve noticed.
dosman33 4y ago
I'd largely agree with your sentiments. FWIW though, I think it's unfair to compare community-organized makerspaces to TechShop. While they have similar look and feel, no community-run makerspaces open their doors with $1M in equipment on the floor, it's a different business model. TechShop was propping up numerous unprofitable locations with a very small number of profitable locations. Those money sink locations sunk the entire enterprise in time. My understanding is that the Makerfaire brand was also propping up TechShop. Early on we went with our own branding rather than use the Makerfaire name for one simple reason: at that time it cost ~$700 to use the name for our event and we got nothing in return other than getting to use the name. Our own maker fair event has been extremely successful, and the cost to use the name has only gone up. The Make brand certainly was a boost to the Makerspace/Hackerspace movement, but it also had drawbacks of its own.
- sliceform 4y ago
  Fair points about tech shop, it was a different beast compared to most spaces, had VC funding, and had many other issues. Unfortunately, it’s not just their model that failed. We watched our two closest in proximity “competitors” go out of business in the span of a few years. Not to mention our building rent went way up as Amazon and Walmart gobbled up all the large commercial spaces, making it even harder. Curious, what event do you run?
  - dosman33 4y ago
    We call our event Makevention.
    - sliceform 4y ago
      Super cool. I'm a fellow midwesterner and love to see this in Indiana.
caeril 4y ago
anecdote: I've been tinkering with electronics projects all my life, since I was a kid with Sam's Kits and Heathkit. I have an absolute ton of discrete components, soldering gear, power supplies, oscilloscopes, logic analyzers, microcontrollers, PCB etching kits, breadboards, etc, to contribute. Also, plenty of machine tools: lathes, drill presses, CNC platforms, etc. Not to mention, a fair bit of knowledge. There is a local hackerspace near me. I emailed them, with no response. Went to knock on their door, and they told me to get lost and only show up at a specific time. I subsequently did so, and nobody was there. The taste left in my mouth of "hackerspaces" is therefore quite sour, and my personal anecdotal read on the situation is that these places deserve their fate. It seems that they don't actually want to succeed.
- dosman33 4y ago
  Sorry to hear that. The distributed nature of small community groups and a lack of central management can lead to situations like this. As a member, when you stop in to spend an hour working on a project in your space during non-public hours it can be hard to accommodate unexpected interruptions. There would be times I'd drop in for a 5 minute project and end up there for 2 hours helping other members use the space, etc. I'm happy to help folks, but it takes a toll after a while to the point when you avoid using a space because it uses you more than you use it. During public hours there may not necessarily be a single person who's job it is to greet non-members for tours. If a member of the public drops in and there's a lull in members present or a particularly anti-social member is all that's left to greet new people then it doesn't put the best foot forwards to the community. Hopefully it's just a momentary lapse in outreach as bad introductions like this are what get communicated much more than good introductions. I can certainly understand not wanting to return with things working out like this for you.
nyokodo 4y ago
> how difficult they are to both run and make profitable. If they are profitable, they tend to operate on razor thin margins. What are the barriers to operating a maker space as a non-profit?
- sliceform 4y ago
  Hacker Lab was a non-profit. The barriers remain the same. How to pay for the space, the upkeep, equipment, etc to keep it running. It's not cheap..
  - NileTheGreat 4y ago
    Slight correction: Hacker Lab is/was not a non-profit. We ran a bit too altruistically for a for-profit, and in hindsight non-profit is definitely the way to go. Source: Hacker Lab CTO here, somehow missed this thread until now.
    - ValentineC 4y ago
      > Hacker Lab is/was not a non-profit. By "not a non-profit", does that mean that Hacker Lab had full-time paid staff, or were they just incorporated as a for-profit entity?

sokoloff 4y ago

> It’s sad because they also tend to produce value disproportionate to their cost, providing real opportunity for people to learn hands-on skills, make products, and start businesses. If this thesis is true, I wonder why so many hacker/maker-spaces struggle to make ends meet. Is it that the people who are receiving this value don't see (or can't correctly estimate) the value? Or that they see it but due to circumstances can't currently pay for it?

marcinzm 4y ago
When people start the short term value provided is low so they will not pay a lot. When people have acquired those skills they find other places are better to utilize those skills than the hacker/maker-space so they will not pay a lot. They'll have the tools at their new job, buy the specific ones they use or join a more professional workspace that has them.
sliceform 4y ago
I largely agree with the other reply here. The value increases as the users knowledge of tools, techniques, and community increases. This, however, takes a substantial amount of time. Most people simple aren’t willing or are unable to pay for the investment. I disagree that people leave to guilds or build out their own space, except when they’ve outgrown the current space (which is so rare I can count the number of people on 1 hand). I can’t recall anyone leaving to a guild. A few people did go into the trades and took good jobs, eventually leaving. The cheap trinket market is saturated and tough to crack, making it difficult for small makers to get a footing. It is possible, but it takes a fair bit of marketing/sales knowledge to get it rolling. I coached many early stage entrepreneurs who thought their stickers and laser etched boxes would make them a living. Unfortunately, they were usually not able to capture the long term value of the space and we’re gone within 2 months. I think there’s a quality to price ratio problem for makers. Their specialized skillset which takes years to master is simply not worth that much to most clients. It is hard for clients to justify paying $1500 for a desk when you can get something that works and looks okay for $200 from IKEA or target. Maybe I’m wrong, but these are the things I’ve noticed.

dosman33 4y ago

I'd largely agree with your sentiments. FWIW though, I think it's unfair to compare community-organized makerspaces to TechShop. While they have similar look and feel, no community-run makerspaces open their doors with $1M in equipment on the floor, it's a different business model. TechShop was propping up numerous unprofitable locations with a very small number of profitable locations. Those money sink locations sunk the entire enterprise in time. My understanding is that the Makerfaire brand was also propping up TechShop. Early on we went with our own branding rather than use the Makerfaire name for one simple reason: at that time it cost ~$700 to use the name for our event and we got nothing in return other than getting to use the name. Our own maker fair event has been extremely successful, and the cost to use the name has only gone up. The Make brand certainly was a boost to the Makerspace/Hackerspace movement, but it also had drawbacks of its own.

sliceform 4y ago
Fair points about tech shop, it was a different beast compared to most spaces, had VC funding, and had many other issues. Unfortunately, it’s not just their model that failed. We watched our two closest in proximity “competitors” go out of business in the span of a few years. Not to mention our building rent went way up as Amazon and Walmart gobbled up all the large commercial spaces, making it even harder. Curious, what event do you run?
- dosman33 4y ago
  We call our event Makevention.
  - sliceform 4y ago
    Super cool. I'm a fellow midwesterner and love to see this in Indiana.

caeril 4y ago

anecdote: I've been tinkering with electronics projects all my life, since I was a kid with Sam's Kits and Heathkit. I have an absolute ton of discrete components, soldering gear, power supplies, oscilloscopes, logic analyzers, microcontrollers, PCB etching kits, breadboards, etc, to contribute. Also, plenty of machine tools: lathes, drill presses, CNC platforms, etc. Not to mention, a fair bit of knowledge. There is a local hackerspace near me. I emailed them, with no response. Went to knock on their door, and they told me to get lost and only show up at a specific time. I subsequently did so, and nobody was there. The taste left in my mouth of "hackerspaces" is therefore quite sour, and my personal anecdotal read on the situation is that these places deserve their fate. It seems that they don't actually want to succeed.

dosman33 4y ago
Sorry to hear that. The distributed nature of small community groups and a lack of central management can lead to situations like this. As a member, when you stop in to spend an hour working on a project in your space during non-public hours it can be hard to accommodate unexpected interruptions. There would be times I'd drop in for a 5 minute project and end up there for 2 hours helping other members use the space, etc. I'm happy to help folks, but it takes a toll after a while to the point when you avoid using a space because it uses you more than you use it. During public hours there may not necessarily be a single person who's job it is to greet non-members for tours. If a member of the public drops in and there's a lull in members present or a particularly anti-social member is all that's left to greet new people then it doesn't put the best foot forwards to the community. Hopefully it's just a momentary lapse in outreach as bad introductions like this are what get communicated much more than good introductions. I can certainly understand not wanting to return with things working out like this for you.

nyokodo 4y ago

> how difficult they are to both run and make profitable. If they are profitable, they tend to operate on razor thin margins. What are the barriers to operating a maker space as a non-profit?

sliceform 4y ago
Hacker Lab was a non-profit. The barriers remain the same. How to pay for the space, the upkeep, equipment, etc to keep it running. It's not cheap..
- NileTheGreat 4y ago
  Slight correction: Hacker Lab is/was not a non-profit. We ran a bit too altruistically for a for-profit, and in hindsight non-profit is definitely the way to go. Source: Hacker Lab CTO here, somehow missed this thread until now.
  - ValentineC 4y ago
    > Hacker Lab is/was not a non-profit. By "not a non-profit", does that mean that Hacker Lab had full-time paid staff, or were they just incorporated as a for-profit entity?