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> Choose to not make every day the same. You're free! For us, once we all went remote, the day just started earlier. Whereas we used to start at 10 we begun st

> Choose to not make every day the same. You're free! For us, once we all went remote, the day just started earlier. Whereas we used to start at 10 we begun starting meetings at 8. The assumption being that nobody is commuting, so why not start the day earlier? This also helped accommodate others in non-Pacific Americas timezones. This means you have to jump straight into meetings and each day can't be materially different, unless you make your after work life different. > Be deliberate about arranging calls with coworkers, friends, family. Just hang out on a call. We tried this but it wasn't the same. Eventually, everyone ended up on their phones while on the call and slowly nobody started showing up to social Zooms. Zoom calls are fine for work but just don't allow the same sense of presence that being in the same space in real life would offer. > If you don't already have hobbies, you want to discover some that you enjoy. Do something that creates nice memories with your spare time, and that isn't the same as your work, or just relaxing. But my coworkers and I have so much shared context. We spend 8 hours+ together. It feels like a waste to pretend that we just don't have anything in common despite the time. Don't get me wrong I love how easy it is to start my day and how little time is wasted commuting. I love the coffee I make at home and I love being able to eat my home cooking or talk with my partner over lunch. Being able to use my home bathroom is majestic. But there's definitely things lost working remote. Maybe if you're a remote worker at a hybrid or in-office company where expectations around most employees are in the office, the above works, but at a full remote company I'm not so sure.

bigDinosaur 4y ago
Honestly, how can you all be so unwilling to push back that you tolerate starting at 8 instead of 10 because the commute vanished? I'd walk if the longer day was enforced rigidly (e.g. by constant monitoring or meetings).
- Karrot_Kream 4y ago
  Because it's easier on the non-Pacific time folks. Instead of Eastern time folks starting at 1300, they start at 1100. It also helps coworkers who want to move to other parts of the US, at the expense of those of us still in Pacific timezones. This way Eastern time folks can sign off at 1900 instead of 2100, which makes it easier for us to work synchronously if needed across the US. Before we went all remote we tended to hire in the same time zone but now we hire across the US. Pacific time workers have to take the early bird hit. If we operated the same as before then we'd have extra morning time, but going remote means we now hire many more coworker in other timezones. It's a double edged sword. We do also tend to end earlier. I don't care because I'm a night owl, but early bird coworkers seem to enjoy the extra time. And yes I've considered walking but haven't yet because I'm not so sure it's that different in other companies I'm interested in at my level.
  - bigDinosaur 4y ago
    Ah right. 'Ending earlier' is definitely crucial information. I hope 'tend to' means >> 50% of the time.
    - Karrot_Kream 4y ago
      Yeah tend to means "> 90%" as it heavily inconveniences Eastern time employees if we go later.
watwut 4y ago
> But my coworkers and I have so much shared context. We spend 8 hours+ together. It feels like a waste to pretend that we just don't have anything in common despite the time. I think that what is kind of unsaid and lost here is that long working hours in office were super often about socialization and not work itself. I mean, it was noticeable even before - people who were there long hours tend to chat away a lot of times both in and out of meetings. But, it looked like work, it was pleasant and rewarded.
- Karrot_Kream 4y ago
  I've never seen this at any Western STEM company I've been at. ICs have been rated on tickets and tickets alone, no matter how lossy the metric, in my experience. I've only seen this at Asian companies which don't track work through tickets. But let's assume this is true. What does this have to do with "It feels like a waste to pretend that we just don't have anything in common despite the time.". Let's assume, to play devil's advocate, that 40% of your 8 hour day is a waste, that 3.2 hours of your day was a waste used to prop up performance reviews. This leaves 4.8 hours of a day with your coworkers actually working. That's 4.8 hours of building connection. To recreate this effect, I'd need to equivalently spend 4.8 hours per day connecting/socializing with others to build the same rapport. That's more than I've ever spent in any social context with friends sans events like week-long concerts or vacations and those are special occasions. This 4.8 hours of daily connection is now lost under a scenario where people don't form bonds at work. I'm not sure how this complaint is relevant. Just because the time was superfluous or used to pad performance reviews, a claim that seems dubious for ticket-based companies, doesn't negate the time spent connecting. Getting annoyed/angry at a culture that rewards face-time is unrelated to the reality of time spent together in the same context.
  - watwut 4y ago
    I have never seen rating IC on tickets and never worked in Asian nor with Asians. But, I have worked in companies where culture was to do a lot of overtime and not overtime. The people in overtime cultures socialized primary within company. People in non-overtime one much less so. > That's 4.8 hours of building connection. No, a non-overtime company does not have you building connection 3-4.8 hours a day. That is huge amount of time and does not happen in that setup, unless you are all slacking.

bigDinosaur 4y ago

Honestly, how can you all be so unwilling to push back that you tolerate starting at 8 instead of 10 because the commute vanished? I'd walk if the longer day was enforced rigidly (e.g. by constant monitoring or meetings).

Karrot_Kream 4y ago
Because it's easier on the non-Pacific time folks. Instead of Eastern time folks starting at 1300, they start at 1100. It also helps coworkers who want to move to other parts of the US, at the expense of those of us still in Pacific timezones. This way Eastern time folks can sign off at 1900 instead of 2100, which makes it easier for us to work synchronously if needed across the US. Before we went all remote we tended to hire in the same time zone but now we hire across the US. Pacific time workers have to take the early bird hit. If we operated the same as before then we'd have extra morning time, but going remote means we now hire many more coworker in other timezones. It's a double edged sword. We do also tend to end earlier. I don't care because I'm a night owl, but early bird coworkers seem to enjoy the extra time. And yes I've considered walking but haven't yet because I'm not so sure it's that different in other companies I'm interested in at my level.
- bigDinosaur 4y ago
  Ah right. 'Ending earlier' is definitely crucial information. I hope 'tend to' means >> 50% of the time.
  - Karrot_Kream 4y ago
    Yeah tend to means "> 90%" as it heavily inconveniences Eastern time employees if we go later.

watwut 4y ago

> But my coworkers and I have so much shared context. We spend 8 hours+ together. It feels like a waste to pretend that we just don't have anything in common despite the time. I think that what is kind of unsaid and lost here is that long working hours in office were super often about socialization and not work itself. I mean, it was noticeable even before - people who were there long hours tend to chat away a lot of times both in and out of meetings. But, it looked like work, it was pleasant and rewarded.

Karrot_Kream 4y ago
I've never seen this at any Western STEM company I've been at. ICs have been rated on tickets and tickets alone, no matter how lossy the metric, in my experience. I've only seen this at Asian companies which don't track work through tickets. But let's assume this is true. What does this have to do with "It feels like a waste to pretend that we just don't have anything in common despite the time.". Let's assume, to play devil's advocate, that 40% of your 8 hour day is a waste, that 3.2 hours of your day was a waste used to prop up performance reviews. This leaves 4.8 hours of a day with your coworkers actually working. That's 4.8 hours of building connection. To recreate this effect, I'd need to equivalently spend 4.8 hours per day connecting/socializing with others to build the same rapport. That's more than I've ever spent in any social context with friends sans events like week-long concerts or vacations and those are special occasions. This 4.8 hours of daily connection is now lost under a scenario where people don't form bonds at work. I'm not sure how this complaint is relevant. Just because the time was superfluous or used to pad performance reviews, a claim that seems dubious for ticket-based companies, doesn't negate the time spent connecting. Getting annoyed/angry at a culture that rewards face-time is unrelated to the reality of time spent together in the same context.
- watwut 4y ago
  I have never seen rating IC on tickets and never worked in Asian nor with Asians. But, I have worked in companies where culture was to do a lot of overtime and not overtime. The people in overtime cultures socialized primary within company. People in non-overtime one much less so. > That's 4.8 hours of building connection. No, a non-overtime company does not have you building connection 3-4.8 hours a day. That is huge amount of time and does not happen in that setup, unless you are all slacking.