4 ms·

Tesla already existed before Elon. Can you make the case that they wouldn't have been as successful without him? I don't see any specific performance that would

by camdat 4y ago

Tesla already existed before Elon. Can you make the case that they wouldn't have been as successful without him? I don't see any specific performance that would indicate that he's instrumental to their success.

jdross 4y ago
I hope this is trolling because the details of this are widely reported and discoverable. There is no Tesla without Elon, and there barely was an entity called Tesla before Elon. Even with Elon the company barely made it many times
- camdat 4y ago
  > Even with Elon the company barely made it many times This is the crux of my argument. If Tesla failed, would it been because of Elon? Did X.com, Boring Co., etc fail because of Elon?
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Yes and yes.
    - camdat 4y ago
      If I were to argue that Tesla succeeded in spite of Elon, how would you disprove that? I could point to his bitcoin investments, many discrimination cases, failure to release Autopilot (against his own promises), SEC action, and Tesla share price manipulation as examples of him hurting the companies success, and directly connect them to his actions. Could you do the same for the companies success?
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        > how would you disprove that? Easy. Nobody else's electric car company succeeded. What's the common factor in Tesla's and SpaceX's highly unlikely successes? Elon Musk. What's the common factor in Pixar's and Apple's recovery from near bankruptcy and catapulting to the top? Steve Jobs.
        camdat 4y ago
        > Easy. Nobody else's electric car company succeeded. Define "succeeded"? Tesla was definitely not first to market, Ford is expected to surpass them in EV cars shipped by end of this year, and Tesla is well known for their poor car QA + service (as an owner myself). The comparison between Steve Jobs and Elon Musk is very apt, but I think you lack the historical knowledge to understand why that is.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        > Define "succeeded"? You might not be aware that your replies to me have exhibited 3 characteristics of losing the point: 1. inserting extra words into what I wrote so you can then attack the strawman 2. diversion into arguing about the meaning of words 3. lobbing a personal insult I'm sure you can do better.
        camdat 4y ago
        I'm aware. It's difficult to have a causational discussion with someone continually using correlational evidence. If I say with "provide a reason why Elon is necessary to the success of the company", and you respond with "Look at the success of these two companies he led" that's completely tangential to the question. So in exchange for "doing better" answer a simple question for me: What specific actions did Elon take that led to the success of Tesla and/or SpaceX? I've provided several specific actions that were to the detriment of Tesla, so it should be straightforward to do the inverse.
WalterBright 4y ago
Yes, I know he bought a struggling company. > Can you make the case that they wouldn't have been as successful without him? Easy. They never, ever would have sold it to Musk if they knew it could be such a runaway success and make them container ships full of money. They had no idea how to do it. Musk did.
- camdat 4y ago
  So the willingness of the founder to stay/leave is the only metric for the long-term success of the company?
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Did I say "only"? Nope.
    - camdat 4y ago
      Then how is that a convincing argument that Elon is the reason that Tesla is successful.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        You're confusing Elon with the founders.
        camdat 4y ago
        How so?
        WalterBright 4y ago
        A => B does not mean B => A
- andrepd 4y ago
  Man I had no idea that Tesla had only one employee! It's nothing short of amazing that Musk can design and implement a car and a rocket from the ground up and still have spare time to man the machines in the factories and shitpost on twitter every day! My respect for him grew immensely.
bell-cot 4y ago
I'm sure it's just random chance that Elan has been very closely involved in managing 2 different companies (SpaceX, Tesla) which have seen such massive growth over the past 2 decades. /s By your "make the case" criteria - has there been any business leader who clearly deserved credit?
- camdat 4y ago
  Survivorship bias. Elon has led many failed companies, success doesn't imply correlation.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    I'm sure Michael Jordan has missed many shots at the basket, too.
    - camdat 4y ago
      This is a great analogy. Would you say that Michael Jordan is only successful because of the owner of the team he played for?
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        Jordan was successful on more than one team. Other players on the same team were not remotely as successful.
        camdat 4y ago
        Awesome, so we agree that Elon isn't attributable for the success of Tesla. The owner of the team matters less to the success of the team than the participants, as is easily proven by the argument you have just made. If Elon had consistently led successful teams, as Jordan has, then the correlationary argument would be more convincing. Since he has led a mix of failures and successes, the likely indicator is the teams that worked for him, not his own ability.

by camdat 4y ago

jdross 4y ago

I hope this is trolling because the details of this are widely reported and discoverable. There is no Tesla without Elon, and there barely was an entity called Tesla before Elon. Even with Elon the company barely made it many times

camdat 4y ago
> Even with Elon the company barely made it many times This is the crux of my argument. If Tesla failed, would it been because of Elon? Did X.com, Boring Co., etc fail because of Elon?
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Yes and yes.
  - camdat 4y ago
    If I were to argue that Tesla succeeded in spite of Elon, how would you disprove that? I could point to his bitcoin investments, many discrimination cases, failure to release Autopilot (against his own promises), SEC action, and Tesla share price manipulation as examples of him hurting the companies success, and directly connect them to his actions. Could you do the same for the companies success?
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      > how would you disprove that? Easy. Nobody else's electric car company succeeded. What's the common factor in Tesla's and SpaceX's highly unlikely successes? Elon Musk. What's the common factor in Pixar's and Apple's recovery from near bankruptcy and catapulting to the top? Steve Jobs.
      - camdat 4y ago
        > Easy. Nobody else's electric car company succeeded. Define "succeeded"? Tesla was definitely not first to market, Ford is expected to surpass them in EV cars shipped by end of this year, and Tesla is well known for their poor car QA + service (as an owner myself). The comparison between Steve Jobs and Elon Musk is very apt, but I think you lack the historical knowledge to understand why that is.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        > Define "succeeded"? You might not be aware that your replies to me have exhibited 3 characteristics of losing the point: 1. inserting extra words into what I wrote so you can then attack the strawman 2. diversion into arguing about the meaning of words 3. lobbing a personal insult I'm sure you can do better.
        camdat 4y ago
        I'm aware. It's difficult to have a causational discussion with someone continually using correlational evidence. If I say with "provide a reason why Elon is necessary to the success of the company", and you respond with "Look at the success of these two companies he led" that's completely tangential to the question. So in exchange for "doing better" answer a simple question for me: What specific actions did Elon take that led to the success of Tesla and/or SpaceX? I've provided several specific actions that were to the detriment of Tesla, so it should be straightforward to do the inverse.

WalterBright 4y ago

Yes, I know he bought a struggling company. > Can you make the case that they wouldn't have been as successful without him? Easy. They never, ever would have sold it to Musk if they knew it could be such a runaway success and make them container ships full of money. They had no idea how to do it. Musk did.

camdat 4y ago
So the willingness of the founder to stay/leave is the only metric for the long-term success of the company?
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Did I say "only"? Nope.
  - camdat 4y ago
    Then how is that a convincing argument that Elon is the reason that Tesla is successful.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      You're confusing Elon with the founders.
      - camdat 4y ago
        How so?
        WalterBright 4y ago
        A => B does not mean B => A
andrepd 4y ago
Man I had no idea that Tesla had only one employee! It's nothing short of amazing that Musk can design and implement a car and a rocket from the ground up and still have spare time to man the machines in the factories and shitpost on twitter every day! My respect for him grew immensely.

bell-cot 4y ago

I'm sure it's just random chance that Elan has been very closely involved in managing 2 different companies (SpaceX, Tesla) which have seen such massive growth over the past 2 decades. /s By your "make the case" criteria - has there been any business leader who clearly deserved credit?

camdat 4y ago
Survivorship bias. Elon has led many failed companies, success doesn't imply correlation.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  I'm sure Michael Jordan has missed many shots at the basket, too.
  - camdat 4y ago
    This is a great analogy. Would you say that Michael Jordan is only successful because of the owner of the team he played for?
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      Jordan was successful on more than one team. Other players on the same team were not remotely as successful.
      - camdat 4y ago
        Awesome, so we agree that Elon isn't attributable for the success of Tesla. The owner of the team matters less to the success of the team than the participants, as is easily proven by the argument you have just made. If Elon had consistently led successful teams, as Jordan has, then the correlationary argument would be more convincing. Since he has led a mix of failures and successes, the likely indicator is the teams that worked for him, not his own ability.