6 ms·

I find the snide and cynical tone of this kind of post sad. We seem to be at the point where offering any competition to Apple in any category is tagged as as

by zmmmmm 15y ago

I find the snide and cynical tone of this kind of post sad. We seem to be at the point where offering any competition to Apple in any category is tagged as as a "rip off" when a short time ago it was just seen as healthy, even essential competition. We the consumers are the beneficiaries of competition. Why we (or this class of person) have chosen to deride it I don't understand.

tikhonj 15y ago
A cynical answer would be that it generates pageviews and discussion. If the article was just "ASUS Zenbook--it's okay but not brilliant", it would not have gotten onto hn at all, and if it did I certainly wouldn't be discussing it quite as fervently. I doubt the author consciously planned it this way; however, it's perfectly reasonable that he subconsciously wanted to make a more striking point but unfortunately came over as overly antagonistic.
- gurkendoktor 15y ago
  I disagree. A MacBook Air with an unusable trackpad is emphatically not okay- it's absolutely worthless, ruined by one component. (At least if you don't fall into the USB-mouse-on-a-laptop camp.) The MacBook Air was never about specs, where the Zenbook might be okay (except for weight and height).
  - tikhonj 15y ago
    Or if you fall into the power-user camp that uses the keyboard almost exclusively like I do (this is both with a nice touchpad and even on desktops with a physical mouse). The newer touchpads like the ones on my laptop and Macs are okay, but constantly switching between that and the keyboard is ultimately slower than just using the keyboard. Once you get used to navigating around with the keyboard as much as possible--assuming your OS supports it well--the quality of a touchpad stops mattering. I am now consistently annoyed by web apps and programs that force me to use the mouse unless I really have to. Ultimately though, my point wasn't really so much about the laptop as about the tone of the article, which your post doesn't seem to address. Even if the Asus deserves derision, and antagonistic response is still not necessary, and still generates more views and comments. The worst bit is that--by virtue of replying here and commenting on the thread--I've shown that his tactics are successful.
    - gurkendoktor 15y ago
      Upvoted because I totally forgot about keyboard-only ninjas. The title itself I think is not too bad, but after seeing the URL slug, I tend to agree on the childish tone.
blub 15y ago
You can think of Marco Arment as Gruber Lite... I for one hope that this Ultrabook is a wild success, if I want to buy a Mac in my country I have to pay about 900$ more compared to the US and I don't even get AppleCare, but an equivalent. The world shouldn't begin and end with Apple, competition is healty.
jwr 15y ago
I'm glad there are companies that try to compete with Apple. I think it isn't healthy for anyone when there is a dominating presence. But I see no reason not to deride products which are clones of other companies' products with no improvements (or that are in fact worse). Put it another way, I don't see a reason to automatically grant extra lenience or extra credit to anyone that produces a clone of an Apple product. This isn't golf and there are no handicaps. Either make a better product, or be ridiculed. It's also worth remembering that all our deriding, ridiculing and arguing counts for little in the real world. As Jobs nicely put it in an interview (paraphrased): if we build something people want then they buy it and we get to come to work another day.
gnaffle 15y ago
I don't think so. It's a rip off when they copy everything, and copy it badly. For instance, the keyboard design on the Mac has "separated" keys because it's needed to give better structural support to the unibody frame. It's not just a "cool design thing". Jony Ive talks about it here: http://youtu.be/t0fe800C2CU?t=2m46s http://youtu.be/t0fe800C2CU?t=2m46s Watching other companies copy this keyboard design in many ways resembles the first people trying to fly by flapping their cloth covered wings. "It looks exactly the same as what the bird does, dammit, why isn't it working?!" Now, imagine how many different, _better_ products one could have if only more companies had someone as obsessed with product design as Ive, and gave him some authority. What if some laptop manufacturer made a thinner, more sturdy ultraportable design that for some reason didn't need this keyboard design? It wouldn't have to look anything like the MBA, and it wouldn't be accused of being a rip-off.
- dman 15y ago
  http://www.lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/ http://www.lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/ - designers at other companies sweat the details too.
  - gnaffle 15y ago
    They sweat the details, but sadly not enough. I guess there might be some great designers in many other companies. The big problem, of course, is that they don't get the resources to do great work. That was true of the Apple pre Steve Jobs as well. Some companies are better than others, but I don't know of any that takes attention to detail to the extremes that Apple do. The underside of the X1 very "clean" compared to other laptops: http://www.lenovo.com/shop/americas/content/img_lib/products/splitter/notebooks/ThinkPad/x-Series/gallery/X1-13L.jpg http://www.lenovo.com/shop/americas/content/img_lib/products... But it wouldn't be good enough for Ive: http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/hQs2dpxbDLwekWTm.huge http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/hQs2dpxbDLwekWTm.huge Of course, only design freaks worry about something like this. But it's attention to detail that has gotten Apple to where it is today.
    - jarek 15y ago
masklinn 15y ago
The problem is not "offering [...] competition to Apple", it's building an inferior copy to their lines. Note the part about it being inferior, because that is the issue. If this laptop was better than the Air, or significantly cheaper, it would not get panned. But it's not, and it's not. > Why we (or this class of person) have chosen to deride it I don't understand. Because it's garbage?
- dman 15y ago
  Have you used the product in question?

by zmmmmm 15y ago

tikhonj 15y ago

A cynical answer would be that it generates pageviews and discussion. If the article was just "ASUS Zenbook--it's okay but not brilliant", it would not have gotten onto hn at all, and if it did I certainly wouldn't be discussing it quite as fervently. I doubt the author consciously planned it this way; however, it's perfectly reasonable that he subconsciously wanted to make a more striking point but unfortunately came over as overly antagonistic.

gurkendoktor 15y ago
I disagree. A MacBook Air with an unusable trackpad is emphatically not okay- it's absolutely worthless, ruined by one component. (At least if you don't fall into the USB-mouse-on-a-laptop camp.) The MacBook Air was never about specs, where the Zenbook might be okay (except for weight and height).
- tikhonj 15y ago
  Or if you fall into the power-user camp that uses the keyboard almost exclusively like I do (this is both with a nice touchpad and even on desktops with a physical mouse). The newer touchpads like the ones on my laptop and Macs are okay, but constantly switching between that and the keyboard is ultimately slower than just using the keyboard. Once you get used to navigating around with the keyboard as much as possible--assuming your OS supports it well--the quality of a touchpad stops mattering. I am now consistently annoyed by web apps and programs that force me to use the mouse unless I really have to. Ultimately though, my point wasn't really so much about the laptop as about the tone of the article, which your post doesn't seem to address. Even if the Asus deserves derision, and antagonistic response is still not necessary, and still generates more views and comments. The worst bit is that--by virtue of replying here and commenting on the thread--I've shown that his tactics are successful.
  - gurkendoktor 15y ago
    Upvoted because I totally forgot about keyboard-only ninjas. The title itself I think is not too bad, but after seeing the URL slug, I tend to agree on the childish tone.

blub 15y ago

You can think of Marco Arment as Gruber Lite... I for one hope that this Ultrabook is a wild success, if I want to buy a Mac in my country I have to pay about 900$ more compared to the US and I don't even get AppleCare, but an equivalent. The world shouldn't begin and end with Apple, competition is healty.

jwr 15y ago

I'm glad there are companies that try to compete with Apple. I think it isn't healthy for anyone when there is a dominating presence. But I see no reason not to deride products which are clones of other companies' products with no improvements (or that are in fact worse). Put it another way, I don't see a reason to automatically grant extra lenience or extra credit to anyone that produces a clone of an Apple product. This isn't golf and there are no handicaps. Either make a better product, or be ridiculed. It's also worth remembering that all our deriding, ridiculing and arguing counts for little in the real world. As Jobs nicely put it in an interview (paraphrased): if we build something people want then they buy it and we get to come to work another day.

gnaffle 15y ago

I don't think so. It's a rip off when they copy everything, and copy it badly. For instance, the keyboard design on the Mac has "separated" keys because it's needed to give better structural support to the unibody frame. It's not just a "cool design thing". Jony Ive talks about it here: http://youtu.be/t0fe800C2CU?t=2m46s http://youtu.be/t0fe800C2CU?t=2m46s Watching other companies copy this keyboard design in many ways resembles the first people trying to fly by flapping their cloth covered wings. "It looks exactly the same as what the bird does, dammit, why isn't it working?!" Now, imagine how many different, _better_ products one could have if only more companies had someone as obsessed with product design as Ive, and gave him some authority. What if some laptop manufacturer made a thinner, more sturdy ultraportable design that for some reason didn't need this keyboard design? It wouldn't have to look anything like the MBA, and it wouldn't be accused of being a rip-off.

dman 15y ago
http://www.lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/ http://www.lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/ - designers at other companies sweat the details too.
- gnaffle 15y ago
  They sweat the details, but sadly not enough. I guess there might be some great designers in many other companies. The big problem, of course, is that they don't get the resources to do great work. That was true of the Apple pre Steve Jobs as well. Some companies are better than others, but I don't know of any that takes attention to detail to the extremes that Apple do. The underside of the X1 very "clean" compared to other laptops: http://www.lenovo.com/shop/americas/content/img_lib/products/splitter/notebooks/ThinkPad/x-Series/gallery/X1-13L.jpg http://www.lenovo.com/shop/americas/content/img_lib/products... But it wouldn't be good enough for Ive: http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/hQs2dpxbDLwekWTm.huge http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/hQs2dpxbDLwekWTm.huge Of course, only design freaks worry about something like this. But it's attention to detail that has gotten Apple to where it is today.
  - jarek 15y ago

masklinn 15y ago

The problem is not "offering [...] competition to Apple", it's building an inferior copy to their lines. Note the part about it being inferior, because that is the issue. If this laptop was better than the Air, or significantly cheaper, it would not get panned. But it's not, and it's not. > Why we (or this class of person) have chosen to deride it I don't understand. Because it's garbage?

dman 15y ago
Have you used the product in question?