5 ms·

I'm increasingly intrigued by the idea of autism as one end of a spectrum of cognition strategies, with schizophrenia at the other end. Scott Alexander has a lo

I'm increasingly intrigued by the idea of autism as one end of a spectrum of cognition strategies, with schizophrenia at the other end. Scott Alexander has a lot to say about this: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/12/11/diametrical-model-of-autism-and-schizophrenia/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/12/11/diametrical-model-of-a... https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/blindness-schizophrenia-and-autism https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/blindness-schizophreni... https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/09/12/its-bayes-all-the-way-up/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/09/12/its-bayes-all-the-way-... tl;dr: Autistic folks have really tight confidence intervals on their priors. In these circumstances, sensory data that deviates slightly from expectation becomes very grating (noise and touch sensitivity) and sensory data that conforms to expectation is exceptionally rewarding (hence stimming and deep topical science-y interests). Schizophrenic folks have really broad confidence intervals on their priors. In these circumstances, sensory data that deviates from expectation is interpreted as meaningful rather than noise (hence hallucinations and psychotic jumps to conclusions), but they'll tend to do better on tasks that require relaxed priors (e.g. the concave/convex face)

giraffe_lady 4y ago
Just don't ask too many questions about what else he believes about the range of human cognition, or what we should be doing about it!
- superb-owl 4y ago
  Tell me about it. He's a smart dude and I can't help but appreciate his work. But his defense of racialism is getting harder and harder for me to ignore.
  - adolph 4y ago
    > his defense of racialism ??
    - superb-owl 4y ago
      I'd suggest reading the NY Times article on him [1], as well as his rebuttal [2] I don't think the Times was entirely fair in their coverage. But as a long time SSC/ACX reader I've often felt a subtext of racialist beliefs lurking in the corner. He never comes right out and says it, but e.g. praising Charles Murray is more than a dog whistle. To be clear - I'm distinguishing racialism (which believes there are large, measurable, genetic differences in traits like intelligence and aggression between races) and racism (which carries an extra connotation of emotional hatred). I think of racialism as racism masquerading as objective science. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/13/technology/slate-star-codex-rationalists.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/13/technology/slate-star-cod... [2] https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/statement-on-new-york-times-article https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/statement-on-new-york-...
      - mistermann 4y ago
        Do you strongly distinguish between race and culture?
        superb-owl 4y ago
        I'm not entirely sure I understand the question... But yes - in my set of definitions, race is genetic/hardware, and culture is environmental/software. Obviously the two correlate pretty heavily - i.e. racial groups tend to form subcultures.
        mistermann 4y ago
        Does culture not vastly complicate the racism question, perhaps often to a point beyond the human mind's ability to conceptualize it accurately, especially considering how flawed we know it is at that task?
        superb-owl 4y ago
        I mean, sure, it's complicated. Are you saying complicated things aren't worth studying or discussing? Quantum mechanics is also "beyond the human mind's ability to conceptualize" but we're still able to make progress. And discussions of race are vastly more important, at least when measuring in terms of human suffering.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
svnt 4y ago
Personally I see this as indicating it is dominated by learning method. The autism end is highly skilled individual learning, either intrinsically or because of social deprivation during development. This does not mean they can’t learn socially, but that social learning is a net loss for them and they become a commons (in the tragedy of the commons sense) The schizophrenia end is predominantly social learning, where either individual learning skill is not as high, leading to bad outcomes and seeking confirmation, or early social opportunity is atypically high, leading to a bias for social interaction. This can be either based on skills/ability or more simply on differing intensity of affect as experienced in different settings.
agnos 4y ago
Came here to link SSC as well. I find the predictive coding theory to be a pretty compelling model of cognitive function/dysfunction. There seems to be another related but separate dimension to the spectrum. I remember an analogy of borderline personality disorder being the female version of autism mentioned somewhere on SSC as well, which is interesting. The disorders seem to share some sort of failure in integration between top-down priors and bottom up sensory information, but with a different focus. Borderline personality disorder seems like a difficulty in integrating more extrinsic, social concepts like self-identity and models of other people. It makes me think there's something fundamentally different between introverted and extraverted cognitive strategies.
wrnr 4y ago
It might have some explaining power but I can think of counter examples from my own personal life. Schizophrenia just like autism a very defuse category that covers many non overlapping conditions. I think this silly joke by jreg about Schizotism/Autizmophrenia explains it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHuFSnhKG9I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHuFSnhKG9I
- superb-owl 4y ago
  ...I think this video is too steeped in Layer 3 irony for me to parse.
  - wrnr 4y ago
    This will clear that up for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjSE1h_Ad9E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjSE1h_Ad9E
0olong 4y ago
The existence of autistic schizophrenic people seems like a problem for the hypothesis that they're opposite ends of a continuum though?
- superb-owl 4y ago
  Interesting! Turns out autistic people are up to 3.55 times more likely to also have a schizophrenia diagnosis [1]. I've actually wondered something similar about myself: I exhibit some minor autistic and schizophrenic tendencies, but in different contexts. I like to think my position on the scale is more fluid than it is for others. Maybe some genes code for higher variance along the spectrum, while other genes push in one direction or the other. [1] https://www.healthline.com/health/autism-vs-schizophrenia https://www.healthline.com/health/autism-vs-schizophrenia

giraffe_lady 4y ago

Just don't ask too many questions about what else he believes about the range of human cognition, or what we should be doing about it!

superb-owl 4y ago
Tell me about it. He's a smart dude and I can't help but appreciate his work. But his defense of racialism is getting harder and harder for me to ignore.
- adolph 4y ago
  > his defense of racialism ??
  - superb-owl 4y ago
    I'd suggest reading the NY Times article on him [1], as well as his rebuttal [2] I don't think the Times was entirely fair in their coverage. But as a long time SSC/ACX reader I've often felt a subtext of racialist beliefs lurking in the corner. He never comes right out and says it, but e.g. praising Charles Murray is more than a dog whistle. To be clear - I'm distinguishing racialism (which believes there are large, measurable, genetic differences in traits like intelligence and aggression between races) and racism (which carries an extra connotation of emotional hatred). I think of racialism as racism masquerading as objective science. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/13/technology/slate-star-codex-rationalists.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/13/technology/slate-star-cod... [2] https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/statement-on-new-york-times-article https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/statement-on-new-york-...
    - mistermann 4y ago
      Do you strongly distinguish between race and culture?
      - superb-owl 4y ago
        I'm not entirely sure I understand the question... But yes - in my set of definitions, race is genetic/hardware, and culture is environmental/software. Obviously the two correlate pretty heavily - i.e. racial groups tend to form subcultures.
        mistermann 4y ago
        Does culture not vastly complicate the racism question, perhaps often to a point beyond the human mind's ability to conceptualize it accurately, especially considering how flawed we know it is at that task?
        superb-owl 4y ago
        I mean, sure, it's complicated. Are you saying complicated things aren't worth studying or discussing? Quantum mechanics is also "beyond the human mind's ability to conceptualize" but we're still able to make progress. And discussions of race are vastly more important, at least when measuring in terms of human suffering.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

svnt 4y ago

Personally I see this as indicating it is dominated by learning method. The autism end is highly skilled individual learning, either intrinsically or because of social deprivation during development. This does not mean they can’t learn socially, but that social learning is a net loss for them and they become a commons (in the tragedy of the commons sense) The schizophrenia end is predominantly social learning, where either individual learning skill is not as high, leading to bad outcomes and seeking confirmation, or early social opportunity is atypically high, leading to a bias for social interaction. This can be either based on skills/ability or more simply on differing intensity of affect as experienced in different settings.

agnos 4y ago

Came here to link SSC as well. I find the predictive coding theory to be a pretty compelling model of cognitive function/dysfunction. There seems to be another related but separate dimension to the spectrum. I remember an analogy of borderline personality disorder being the female version of autism mentioned somewhere on SSC as well, which is interesting. The disorders seem to share some sort of failure in integration between top-down priors and bottom up sensory information, but with a different focus. Borderline personality disorder seems like a difficulty in integrating more extrinsic, social concepts like self-identity and models of other people. It makes me think there's something fundamentally different between introverted and extraverted cognitive strategies.

wrnr 4y ago

It might have some explaining power but I can think of counter examples from my own personal life. Schizophrenia just like autism a very defuse category that covers many non overlapping conditions. I think this silly joke by jreg about Schizotism/Autizmophrenia explains it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHuFSnhKG9I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHuFSnhKG9I

superb-owl 4y ago
...I think this video is too steeped in Layer 3 irony for me to parse.
- wrnr 4y ago
  This will clear that up for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjSE1h_Ad9E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjSE1h_Ad9E

0olong 4y ago

The existence of autistic schizophrenic people seems like a problem for the hypothesis that they're opposite ends of a continuum though?

superb-owl 4y ago
Interesting! Turns out autistic people are up to 3.55 times more likely to also have a schizophrenia diagnosis [1]. I've actually wondered something similar about myself: I exhibit some minor autistic and schizophrenic tendencies, but in different contexts. I like to think my position on the scale is more fluid than it is for others. Maybe some genes code for higher variance along the spectrum, while other genes push in one direction or the other. [1] https://www.healthline.com/health/autism-vs-schizophrenia https://www.healthline.com/health/autism-vs-schizophrenia