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Great comment! Thank you. Can persistent effort increase intelligence? No. Why do you ask?

13ren 18y ago
Are you being sarcastic? Have a look at the link provided if you are not. EDIT oh, I see: you thought I was asking you a question, but my question was an introduction to the linked article.
- orib 18y ago
  The article confuses work ethic and intelligence and ability. I think that although there's overlap, they're quite different things. And using grades as an intelligence indicator is horribly flawed.
  - 13ren 18y ago
    Do you know of evidence that intelligence is not affected by effort?
    - DabAsteroid 18y ago
      http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=315938 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=315938
      - 13ren 18y ago
        Those references don't seem to address my question about effort having an effect on intelligence. My question isn't about the heritability of intelligence, but whether effort (that is, training) can enhance one's intelligence. Let me explain with an analogous question: Does athletic training increase athletic ability? In terms of strength, flexibility, aerobic fitness, speed, perception, assessment, reaction times, specific skills, strategy? Do believe that mental exercise has no effect whatsoever on mental ability? That would be contrary to everyday experience, and studies showing that a lack of stimulation (i.e. mental exercise) retards cognitive development. e.g. that the visual system does not develop without stimulus; that the speech centers do not develop unless exposed to speech within the window (closes at around 7yo). EDIT interesting: "Breast feeding makes a huge difference, about 7 IQ points." http://www.amazon.com/Factor-Science-Evolution-Behavior-Intelligence/dp/0275961036 http://www.amazon.com/Factor-Science-Evolution-Behavior-Inte...
        DabAsteroid 18y ago
        Those references don't seem to address my question about effort having an effect on intelligence. To paraphrase Captain Malcolm Reynolds of the Firefly class ship Serenity: "Well -- they do." Try checking the subject index of The g Factor: Abecedarian Project, 342-44, 500, 522 Head Start, 337-39 Milwaukee Project, 500 . My question isn't about the heritability of intelligence Why would you think that a book called "The g Factor: The Science of Mental Ability" would only be about heritability? . Do believe that mental exercise has no effect whatsoever on mental ability? Yes. Why do you ask? . studies [show] that a lack of stimulation ... retards cognitive development. What studies are those? Would you consider being locked 24 hours, seven days a week, in a dark attic with a deaf-mute mother, and no toys, to be adequate stimulation for a developing child? The child rescued from that situation turned out to have mentally-developed normally, including having a normal IQ. Read all about it, and other cases of rescue from severe adversity, here: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Early+Experience+and+the+Life+Path%22+attic http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Early+Experience+and+the+L... . Jensen discusses the case of Isabelle (reported by Clarke and Clarke) on page 113 of the g Factor: From birth to age six, Isabel [sic] was totally confined to a dim attic room, where she lived alone with her deaf-mute mother who was her only social contact. Except for food, shelter, and the presence of her mother, Isabel was reared in what amounted to a totally deprived environment. There were no toys, picture books, or gadgets of any kind for her to play with. When found by the auothorities, at age six, Isabel was tested and found to have a mental age of one year and seven months and an IQ of about 30, which is barely at the imbecile level. In many ways she behaved like a very young child; she had no speech and made only croaking sounds. When handed toys or other unfamiliar objects, she would immediately put them in her mouth, as infants normally do. Yet as soon as she was exposed to educational experiences, she acquired speech, vocabulary, and syntax at an astonishing rate and gained six years of tested mental age within just two years. By the age of eight, she had come up to a mental age of eight, and her level of achievement in school was on a par with her age-mates. ... She graduated from high school as an average student. What all this means ... is that the neurological basis of information processing continued developing autonomously throughout the six years of Isabel's environmental deprivation, so that as soon as she was exposed to a normal environment she was able to learn those things for which she was developmentally "ready" at an extraordinarily fast rate, far beyond the rate for typically reared children over the period of six years over which their mental age normally increases from two to eight years. But the fast rate of manifest mental development slowed down to an average rate at the point where the level of mental development caught up with the level of neurological development. Clearly, the rate of mental development during childhood ... is largely based on the maturation of neural structures.
    - orib 18y ago
      I don't know of strong evidence either way. The fact that I think the article has no bearing on reality doesn't mean that I know what the reality actually is. I'm not sure what the best estimator of intelligence is -- perhaps the amount of time taken to pick up a completely alien concept -- but I've never seen an article thats convinced me of the changeability of intelligence in one way or another.

13ren 18y ago

Are you being sarcastic? Have a look at the link provided if you are not. EDIT oh, I see: you thought I was asking you a question, but my question was an introduction to the linked article.

orib 18y ago
The article confuses work ethic and intelligence and ability. I think that although there's overlap, they're quite different things. And using grades as an intelligence indicator is horribly flawed.
- 13ren 18y ago
  Do you know of evidence that intelligence is not affected by effort?
  - DabAsteroid 18y ago
    http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=315938 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=315938
    - 13ren 18y ago
      Those references don't seem to address my question about effort having an effect on intelligence. My question isn't about the heritability of intelligence, but whether effort (that is, training) can enhance one's intelligence. Let me explain with an analogous question: Does athletic training increase athletic ability? In terms of strength, flexibility, aerobic fitness, speed, perception, assessment, reaction times, specific skills, strategy? Do believe that mental exercise has no effect whatsoever on mental ability? That would be contrary to everyday experience, and studies showing that a lack of stimulation (i.e. mental exercise) retards cognitive development. e.g. that the visual system does not develop without stimulus; that the speech centers do not develop unless exposed to speech within the window (closes at around 7yo). EDIT interesting: "Breast feeding makes a huge difference, about 7 IQ points." http://www.amazon.com/Factor-Science-Evolution-Behavior-Intelligence/dp/0275961036 http://www.amazon.com/Factor-Science-Evolution-Behavior-Inte...
      - DabAsteroid 18y ago
        Those references don't seem to address my question about effort having an effect on intelligence. To paraphrase Captain Malcolm Reynolds of the Firefly class ship Serenity: "Well -- they do." Try checking the subject index of The g Factor: Abecedarian Project, 342-44, 500, 522 Head Start, 337-39 Milwaukee Project, 500 . My question isn't about the heritability of intelligence Why would you think that a book called "The g Factor: The Science of Mental Ability" would only be about heritability? . Do believe that mental exercise has no effect whatsoever on mental ability? Yes. Why do you ask? . studies [show] that a lack of stimulation ... retards cognitive development. What studies are those? Would you consider being locked 24 hours, seven days a week, in a dark attic with a deaf-mute mother, and no toys, to be adequate stimulation for a developing child? The child rescued from that situation turned out to have mentally-developed normally, including having a normal IQ. Read all about it, and other cases of rescue from severe adversity, here: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Early+Experience+and+the+Life+Path%22+attic http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Early+Experience+and+the+L... . Jensen discusses the case of Isabelle (reported by Clarke and Clarke) on page 113 of the g Factor: From birth to age six, Isabel [sic] was totally confined to a dim attic room, where she lived alone with her deaf-mute mother who was her only social contact. Except for food, shelter, and the presence of her mother, Isabel was reared in what amounted to a totally deprived environment. There were no toys, picture books, or gadgets of any kind for her to play with. When found by the auothorities, at age six, Isabel was tested and found to have a mental age of one year and seven months and an IQ of about 30, which is barely at the imbecile level. In many ways she behaved like a very young child; she had no speech and made only croaking sounds. When handed toys or other unfamiliar objects, she would immediately put them in her mouth, as infants normally do. Yet as soon as she was exposed to educational experiences, she acquired speech, vocabulary, and syntax at an astonishing rate and gained six years of tested mental age within just two years. By the age of eight, she had come up to a mental age of eight, and her level of achievement in school was on a par with her age-mates. ... She graduated from high school as an average student. What all this means ... is that the neurological basis of information processing continued developing autonomously throughout the six years of Isabel's environmental deprivation, so that as soon as she was exposed to a normal environment she was able to learn those things for which she was developmentally "ready" at an extraordinarily fast rate, far beyond the rate for typically reared children over the period of six years over which their mental age normally increases from two to eight years. But the fast rate of manifest mental development slowed down to an average rate at the point where the level of mental development caught up with the level of neurological development. Clearly, the rate of mental development during childhood ... is largely based on the maturation of neural structures.
  - orib 18y ago
    I don't know of strong evidence either way. The fact that I think the article has no bearing on reality doesn't mean that I know what the reality actually is. I'm not sure what the best estimator of intelligence is -- perhaps the amount of time taken to pick up a completely alien concept -- but I've never seen an article thats convinced me of the changeability of intelligence in one way or another.