4 ms·

I think dysfunctional theory of mind(mentalizing) explains allot more on a more general plane than monotropism does when it comes to the autistic mind. That sa

I think dysfunctional theory of mind(mentalizing) explains allot more on a more general plane than monotropism does when it comes to the autistic mind. That said one might make the leap that poor mentalization is a effect caused by monotropism as the article seams to imply. It’s a chicken and egg problem. I personally tend to think that poor mentalization ability leads to problems when it comes to subconscious guiding of attention.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
I'm autistic and I feel like I have pretty good theory of mind. I may have been somewhat late in developing its sophistication as a child but certainly not to the point where anyone ever flagged me as dysfunctional in that way. As an adult I struggle with overly empathizing with other people, getting too involved in what I imagine their thoughts and experiences and motivations to be. I have complex models for all the individuals I interact with and have no particular problems developing them for new people. I'm not particularly educated on this subject at all, but monotropism certainly describes the experience of living in my mind. Other people aren't a mystery to me, nor am I or my motivations a mystery to myself. I struggle against being overwhelmed by certain experiences, emotions, stimulus and changes, but not in understanding them. I may not be representative here and I'm not saying I am, or that my experiences are a refutation of either theory. But a lot of what the article says rang true for me and nothing you propose has.
- callesgg 4y ago
  That is commonly what people with high functioning autism says in response to that hypothesis. My assumption is that when you develop good enough of a theory of mind later in life. You are in a situation where you can see how bad you where before and how much better you became after. So you think you are now good at it. It’s like a dunning Kruger effect. It is also important to note that good does not necessarily mean correct or accurate (even if that certainly can be a part of it)it means useful for guiding proper behavior. With that said, the hypothesis is not that bad mentalization abilities is equal to autism. It is that bad mentalization causes you to adopt/learn unconscious behavioral patterns and those patterns are what we classify as autism. This means that even when you “fix” the bad mentalization ability. The person still has all of those behavioral patterns ingrained in them.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    Ok lol I'm not sure how "autistic people always say that tho" is a useful counter to my description of my experiences. You can't really get an insight into other people's mind, so it's impossible for either of us to say how our theory of mind stacks up against anyone else's. Mine is generally useful for acting with care and grace towards other people, which is how I want to act as much as possible. I don't know if that's Proper Behavior, a term I feel like you should be willing to define if you're going to use. And mostly unrelated but I explicitly reject the label of high functioning for myself, and the model that groups autistic people into high and low functioning. I can't exist in the contemporary world and meet my obligations without my supports. Autism is fully disabling for me without accommodations that I am by no means guaranteed. In this I have more in common with your "low functioning" autists than I do with most people in this forum, and I don't accept this language that distances me from them.
    - kayodelycaon 4y ago
      > You can't really get an insight into other people's mind, so it's impossible for either of us to say how our theory of mind stacks up against anyone else's. The idea of finding a way to test our various theories of mind is both amusing and fascinating. There should be a way to do scientific tests. :D
    - callesgg 4y ago
      It was not a counter argument, we are not having an argument. It was just an observation. Also you are mis quoting me I did not say “always”. I am not here to tell you who you are or how you are like. I am here explaining a hypothesis. Labels are what they are. Some are useful some are not, some are emotionally coupled some are not. If you look at what a person does you can make hypothesis's about what is in their mind. It is what the field of psychology is all about. Proper behavior, like not being mean, answering people when they talk to you, not bashing your head in to walls when you are upset and so on.
      - chownie 4y ago
        You fell awfully quickly into deriding autistic people with a negative stereotype for someone who's not here to argue.
- candybar 4y ago
  > I'm autistic and I feel like I have pretty good theory of mind. I may have been somewhat late in developing its sophistication as a child but certainly not to the point where anyone ever flagged me as dysfunctional in that way. As an adult I struggle with overly empathizing with other people, getting too involved in what I imagine their thoughts and experiences and motivations to be. I have complex models for all the individuals I interact with and have no particular problems developing them for new people. Are you saying you're well-above average in being able to read neurotypical people in ordinary social settings? If that's the case, I don't think "autistic" is the correct description for your deviation from neurotypical. It's unclear to me if you're saying you have some kind of complex analytical models for people (to compensate for the inability to intuit) or merely that you are able to intuitively read people naturally neurotypicals do, in which case I'm not sure what you mean when you say you're autistic. I'm fairly monotropic (so this is something I've paid a fair amount of attention to when observing others) but not even the least bit autistic. I also know a bunch of people on the autism spectrum as well as those that have varying degrees of monotropism. I don't see any particular correlation between the two, other than the fact that those on the spectrum tend to pay less attention to certain aspects of reality, while paying more attention to other aspects of reality, which makes neurotypicals feel that they are unusually focused.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    > I'm not sure what you mean when you say you're autistic. I mean that I have been tested and diagnosed as autistic by a doctor, and treated within the context of that diagnosis by other medical professionals for many years. I'm not sure what else would be meant by it?. I don't usually see it used as a casual adjective without an accompanying diagnosis or implying one.
    - candybar 4y ago
      I don't know why you bothered to respond to literally part of a sentence without addressing the hypothetical that renders it meaningful. When you say you have a "good theory of mind" and have "complex models for all the individuals you interact with" are you saying that you have some kind of complex analytical models for people to compensate for the inability to intuit or that you are able to intuitively and effortlessly read people as neurotypicals naturally do? If the latter is what you're saying and you're correct in your self-assessment, that likely means your autism diagnosis is highly questionable. If the former is what you mean, then I think you misunderstand what people mean by "dysfunctional theory of mind" as it applies to autism.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

I'm autistic and I feel like I have pretty good theory of mind. I may have been somewhat late in developing its sophistication as a child but certainly not to the point where anyone ever flagged me as dysfunctional in that way. As an adult I struggle with overly empathizing with other people, getting too involved in what I imagine their thoughts and experiences and motivations to be. I have complex models for all the individuals I interact with and have no particular problems developing them for new people. I'm not particularly educated on this subject at all, but monotropism certainly describes the experience of living in my mind. Other people aren't a mystery to me, nor am I or my motivations a mystery to myself. I struggle against being overwhelmed by certain experiences, emotions, stimulus and changes, but not in understanding them. I may not be representative here and I'm not saying I am, or that my experiences are a refutation of either theory. But a lot of what the article says rang true for me and nothing you propose has.

callesgg 4y ago
That is commonly what people with high functioning autism says in response to that hypothesis. My assumption is that when you develop good enough of a theory of mind later in life. You are in a situation where you can see how bad you where before and how much better you became after. So you think you are now good at it. It’s like a dunning Kruger effect. It is also important to note that good does not necessarily mean correct or accurate (even if that certainly can be a part of it)it means useful for guiding proper behavior. With that said, the hypothesis is not that bad mentalization abilities is equal to autism. It is that bad mentalization causes you to adopt/learn unconscious behavioral patterns and those patterns are what we classify as autism. This means that even when you “fix” the bad mentalization ability. The person still has all of those behavioral patterns ingrained in them.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Ok lol I'm not sure how "autistic people always say that tho" is a useful counter to my description of my experiences. You can't really get an insight into other people's mind, so it's impossible for either of us to say how our theory of mind stacks up against anyone else's. Mine is generally useful for acting with care and grace towards other people, which is how I want to act as much as possible. I don't know if that's Proper Behavior, a term I feel like you should be willing to define if you're going to use. And mostly unrelated but I explicitly reject the label of high functioning for myself, and the model that groups autistic people into high and low functioning. I can't exist in the contemporary world and meet my obligations without my supports. Autism is fully disabling for me without accommodations that I am by no means guaranteed. In this I have more in common with your "low functioning" autists than I do with most people in this forum, and I don't accept this language that distances me from them.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    > You can't really get an insight into other people's mind, so it's impossible for either of us to say how our theory of mind stacks up against anyone else's. The idea of finding a way to test our various theories of mind is both amusing and fascinating. There should be a way to do scientific tests. :D
  - callesgg 4y ago
    It was not a counter argument, we are not having an argument. It was just an observation. Also you are mis quoting me I did not say “always”. I am not here to tell you who you are or how you are like. I am here explaining a hypothesis. Labels are what they are. Some are useful some are not, some are emotionally coupled some are not. If you look at what a person does you can make hypothesis's about what is in their mind. It is what the field of psychology is all about. Proper behavior, like not being mean, answering people when they talk to you, not bashing your head in to walls when you are upset and so on.
    - chownie 4y ago
      You fell awfully quickly into deriding autistic people with a negative stereotype for someone who's not here to argue.
candybar 4y ago
> I'm autistic and I feel like I have pretty good theory of mind. I may have been somewhat late in developing its sophistication as a child but certainly not to the point where anyone ever flagged me as dysfunctional in that way. As an adult I struggle with overly empathizing with other people, getting too involved in what I imagine their thoughts and experiences and motivations to be. I have complex models for all the individuals I interact with and have no particular problems developing them for new people. Are you saying you're well-above average in being able to read neurotypical people in ordinary social settings? If that's the case, I don't think "autistic" is the correct description for your deviation from neurotypical. It's unclear to me if you're saying you have some kind of complex analytical models for people (to compensate for the inability to intuit) or merely that you are able to intuitively read people naturally neurotypicals do, in which case I'm not sure what you mean when you say you're autistic. I'm fairly monotropic (so this is something I've paid a fair amount of attention to when observing others) but not even the least bit autistic. I also know a bunch of people on the autism spectrum as well as those that have varying degrees of monotropism. I don't see any particular correlation between the two, other than the fact that those on the spectrum tend to pay less attention to certain aspects of reality, while paying more attention to other aspects of reality, which makes neurotypicals feel that they are unusually focused.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  > I'm not sure what you mean when you say you're autistic. I mean that I have been tested and diagnosed as autistic by a doctor, and treated within the context of that diagnosis by other medical professionals for many years. I'm not sure what else would be meant by it?. I don't usually see it used as a casual adjective without an accompanying diagnosis or implying one.
  - candybar 4y ago
    I don't know why you bothered to respond to literally part of a sentence without addressing the hypothetical that renders it meaningful. When you say you have a "good theory of mind" and have "complex models for all the individuals you interact with" are you saying that you have some kind of complex analytical models for people to compensate for the inability to intuit or that you are able to intuitively and effortlessly read people as neurotypicals naturally do? If the latter is what you're saying and you're correct in your self-assessment, that likely means your autism diagnosis is highly questionable. If the former is what you mean, then I think you misunderstand what people mean by "dysfunctional theory of mind" as it applies to autism.