4 ms·

Because even 40,000 people is only a lot relatively. It is just 0.012% of the American population and 0.00051% of the world population.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
No even on that scale it is a lot of harm when you consider it as it actually is. As the person you're responding to notes, a preventable death touches many more than just the individual killed. You can argue that this cost is worth bearing, but you can't dismiss it as "just" .01% or whatever. Over a period of years this is almost every family touched by unnecessary death: people growing up without a parent, careers ended because of disability, spiraling into depression or addiction because of losing a child, all the second and third order effects of grief and loss and suffering. Again, maybe it's worth it. Make a point for why it is though, if you find it to be. Pointing at the numbers isn't enough.
- lief79 4y ago
  Relatedly, that's just the fatalities. There are far more none fatal injuries, some of which are permanently life altering without bringing in the costs of health care in this country.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  A couple thousand people die every day. About 90 from car accidents. What fraction of the rest are preventable? Probably most of them, if we're being honest.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
magicalhippo 4y ago
Still, it's an order of magnitude above what we see in Norway for example, around 12 per 100k population vs around 1.8 per 100k population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in... https://www.ssb.no/transport-og-reiseliv/landtransport/statistikk/trafikkulykker-med-personskade https://www.ssb.no/transport-og-reiseliv/landtransport/stati... (car fatalities) https://www.ssb.no/befolkning/folketall/statistikk/befolkning https://www.ssb.no/befolkning/folketall/statistikk/befolknin... (population)
- notch656a 4y ago
  Fatalities are more usefully measured per mile not per person. For instance, in many 3rd world countries the roads are notoriously unsafe but the average person covers few enough miles that their road fatality rate per capital looks better. Note this applies to OP posted above you as well.
  - magicalhippo 4y ago
    I'm assuming you're not suggesting the United States is a 3rd world country... Based on data from the NCSA[1] for the US and SSB[2] for Norway, I get the following for 2019 (before COVID-19 hit): USA: 36096 fatalities and 3.262e12 miles[3] driven = 1.1 fatalities per 100 million miles driven. Norway: 108 fatalities and 45.562e9 km driven = 0.38 fatalities per 100 million miles driven. Might be I did my math wrong. If not, that's still 3x higher than Norway. [1]: https://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Trends/TrendsGeneral.aspx https://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Trends/TrendsGeneral.aspx [2]: https://www.ssb.no/transport-og-reiseliv/landtransport/statistikk/kjorelengder https://www.ssb.no/transport-og-reiseliv/landtransport/stati... (using 2019 data) [3]: I'm assuming they use Billion to mean long scale (1e12), otherwise I can't get their table to make sense.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      I'm not sure how you interpreted "many third world countries" have notoriously dangerous roads as literally everybody worse than Norway (one of if not the safest in the world) fatalities as being a 3rd world. I think you also failed to control for race and income, including the vast (per capita) oil production (which Norway taxes the shit out of) that is used towards the benefit of the average Norwegian (Norways is all the way up next to the Emirates in per capita oil production). One study in Chicago, found that those with 'low' economic hardship had nearly ONE THIRD the rate of fatalities [0]. Compound that with those who the study classified 'white' like the relatively homogeneous Norwegians, and you get several percentage points of correction as well. In short, there's a decent argument to be made that a Norwegian dropped into America is almost or just as safe on American roads as they would be in Norway. That is, roads likely aren't 3x safer in Norway, in fact they may be just as safe, so long as you are demographically like a Norwegian. In short I would say it's probably not the Norwegian road laws or road system that are largely to thank, but rather the fact that Norwegians sit under a gold mine of which is rivaled only by places like the Emirates. And that gold mine is a source of the single greatest improvement in traffic fatality rate in demographic fatality rate, low economic hardship. So yeah, just be born over a gold mine with a silver spoon in your mouth like the Norwegians, why are Americans so lazy? [0] https://www.ghsa.org/sites/default/files/2021-06/An%20Analysis%20of%20Traffic%20Fatalities%20by%20Race%20and%20Ethnicity_0.pdf https://www.ghsa.org/sites/default/files/2021-06/An%20Analys...
Balgair 4y ago
I'm not saying you're wrong, but ... dude... have some sympathy. To OP: Sorry for your loss. I can't imagine what it's like.
lkbm 4y ago
The 40k is US, not worldwide. If you want a % of world population, you should look at world traffic fatalities.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

No even on that scale it is a lot of harm when you consider it as it actually is. As the person you're responding to notes, a preventable death touches many more than just the individual killed. You can argue that this cost is worth bearing, but you can't dismiss it as "just" .01% or whatever. Over a period of years this is almost every family touched by unnecessary death: people growing up without a parent, careers ended because of disability, spiraling into depression or addiction because of losing a child, all the second and third order effects of grief and loss and suffering. Again, maybe it's worth it. Make a point for why it is though, if you find it to be. Pointing at the numbers isn't enough.

lief79 4y ago
Relatedly, that's just the fatalities. There are far more none fatal injuries, some of which are permanently life altering without bringing in the costs of health care in this country.
rootusrootus 4y ago
A couple thousand people die every day. About 90 from car accidents. What fraction of the rest are preventable? Probably most of them, if we're being honest.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

magicalhippo 4y ago

Still, it's an order of magnitude above what we see in Norway for example, around 12 per 100k population vs around 1.8 per 100k population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in... https://www.ssb.no/transport-og-reiseliv/landtransport/statistikk/trafikkulykker-med-personskade https://www.ssb.no/transport-og-reiseliv/landtransport/stati... (car fatalities) https://www.ssb.no/befolkning/folketall/statistikk/befolkning https://www.ssb.no/befolkning/folketall/statistikk/befolknin... (population)

notch656a 4y ago
Fatalities are more usefully measured per mile not per person. For instance, in many 3rd world countries the roads are notoriously unsafe but the average person covers few enough miles that their road fatality rate per capital looks better. Note this applies to OP posted above you as well.
- magicalhippo 4y ago
  I'm assuming you're not suggesting the United States is a 3rd world country... Based on data from the NCSA[1] for the US and SSB[2] for Norway, I get the following for 2019 (before COVID-19 hit): USA: 36096 fatalities and 3.262e12 miles[3] driven = 1.1 fatalities per 100 million miles driven. Norway: 108 fatalities and 45.562e9 km driven = 0.38 fatalities per 100 million miles driven. Might be I did my math wrong. If not, that's still 3x higher than Norway. [1]: https://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Trends/TrendsGeneral.aspx https://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Trends/TrendsGeneral.aspx [2]: https://www.ssb.no/transport-og-reiseliv/landtransport/statistikk/kjorelengder https://www.ssb.no/transport-og-reiseliv/landtransport/stati... (using 2019 data) [3]: I'm assuming they use Billion to mean long scale (1e12), otherwise I can't get their table to make sense.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    I'm not sure how you interpreted "many third world countries" have notoriously dangerous roads as literally everybody worse than Norway (one of if not the safest in the world) fatalities as being a 3rd world. I think you also failed to control for race and income, including the vast (per capita) oil production (which Norway taxes the shit out of) that is used towards the benefit of the average Norwegian (Norways is all the way up next to the Emirates in per capita oil production). One study in Chicago, found that those with 'low' economic hardship had nearly ONE THIRD the rate of fatalities [0]. Compound that with those who the study classified 'white' like the relatively homogeneous Norwegians, and you get several percentage points of correction as well. In short, there's a decent argument to be made that a Norwegian dropped into America is almost or just as safe on American roads as they would be in Norway. That is, roads likely aren't 3x safer in Norway, in fact they may be just as safe, so long as you are demographically like a Norwegian. In short I would say it's probably not the Norwegian road laws or road system that are largely to thank, but rather the fact that Norwegians sit under a gold mine of which is rivaled only by places like the Emirates. And that gold mine is a source of the single greatest improvement in traffic fatality rate in demographic fatality rate, low economic hardship. So yeah, just be born over a gold mine with a silver spoon in your mouth like the Norwegians, why are Americans so lazy? [0] https://www.ghsa.org/sites/default/files/2021-06/An%20Analysis%20of%20Traffic%20Fatalities%20by%20Race%20and%20Ethnicity_0.pdf https://www.ghsa.org/sites/default/files/2021-06/An%20Analys...

Balgair 4y ago

I'm not saying you're wrong, but ... dude... have some sympathy. To OP: Sorry for your loss. I can't imagine what it's like.

lkbm 4y ago

The 40k is US, not worldwide. If you want a % of world population, you should look at world traffic fatalities.