8 ms·

If only we could take this further. What’s more in “control” than driving? Walking and riding a bike. That’s ultimate control.

gottastayfresh 4y ago
Exactly, but it's not ultimately convenient. Control ends where convenience begins (that's not to say its totally accurate, but the phrase looks nice).
- ericmay 4y ago
  > Exactly, but it's not ultimately convenient Strictly by design and active and reinforced choice. Not for any other reason. Period.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    Exactly. There are many places in the world where getting around by transit is much faster and more convenient than driving. It's just rare to find a place in the US where this is the case.
  - gottastayfresh 4y ago
    Absolutely! I wasn't implying otherwise. I think in the U.S. the inertia of both design and life choices is more of the problem -- I think convenience captures both of these issues in their present state. I use convenience here not to suggest actual convenience, but the appearance of convenience, much in the way that it's not really control, but the appearance of control that makes us register the preferability of the personal car.
egypturnash 4y ago
When I am on a bike I am definitely not in control of all the people in cars around me, especially the ones who are drunk, are assholes, or are badly-programmed robots who barely know what a “bicycle” is.
- ericmay 4y ago
  Which would be true of any form of transit, including driving or riding a bus or walking down the street. So I’m not following your point here.
  - kipchak 4y ago
    You're unfortunately either more vulnerable to other cars, less able to take action to avoid them or some combination of both. A motorcycle for example is nimble enough to attempt to avoid a collision but is more vulnerable if a collision occurs, while a bus might be sturdier/larger but your presence can't avoid a collision at all. As a group the safest option would be smaller vehicles, but individually each person is better off (in terms of safety during a collision) with something larger.
danaris 4y ago
This is why, when I have to visit a city, I much prefer to park my car at the first convenient opportunity and walk. Having a car is pretty straightforward and definitely a must in the rural areas where I live (sadly, public transit is effectively nonexistent), but driving a car in a city is difficult and often terrifying, specifically because of the limited control (you're stuck going forward at a particular speed, and if you realize too late that the GPS/map/printed out directions/copilot navigator was indicating that street to turn on, you just have to keep going and hope that you can loop back around somehow without losing too much time...or you risk permanent/exorbitantly expensive damage to your car, someone else's car, and/or one or more humans).
thehappypm 4y ago
Wow, could not agree less! In a bike you’re at the mercy of the bikers and drivers around you, with laughable safety features to protect you.
- ericmay 4y ago
  You’re focusing on these other aspects, not the actual control. I can put my bike in a car, I can ride a bike up a hill or on a dirt trail, a bike is comparatively inexpensive, I can take a bike on a train to another city. Etc. And it would be even more obvious which form of transportation provides the most control if you had bike-first infrastructure. But you’re also not accounting for lots of things completely out of your control, like where highways get built, potholes, funding, insurance rates, the price of rubber for new tires, oil changes, gas stations, etc. It’s the illusion of control. We’ve designed cities specifically so that you can feel like you are in control driving a car. Nothing could be further from the truth.
whakim 4y ago
Yes, but the GP wasn't talking about some objective notion of "control" - they were talking about some subjective "feeling" of control and how that translates to perceptions of risk and danger. Driving a car feels like you're in control because you're the one doing the driving and are isolated from your environment even though (as a sibling comment notes) you're at the mercy of a huge number of factors that you don't perceive. That's why folks don't perceive driving as risky. (Consider airplanes as a contrasting example - extremely safe, but you certainly don't feel "in control".) In that context, cycling doesn't feel like you're "in control" because you're surrounded by large multi-ton vehicles moving significantly faster than you. Walking in urban areas feels safe because of the incredible amount of infrastructure that exists to support pedestrians and the normalcy of walking in those areas.
- ericmay 4y ago
  Idk. I feel most in control the further away I move from the transit appliance. I’d order it something like this (there are other options here I’m omitting) in order of least to most control: Airplane > cruise ship > car > train > bike > feet But I may just think about this stuff more than most people. I never feel as in control when I’m stuck in a traffic jam or behind a slow driver versus riding a bike. Even trains feel like I have more control because I’m on my feet to/from the train and I could get off at a stop and just walk away. It’s very liberating versus a car.

gottastayfresh 4y ago

Exactly, but it's not ultimately convenient. Control ends where convenience begins (that's not to say its totally accurate, but the phrase looks nice).

ericmay 4y ago
> Exactly, but it's not ultimately convenient Strictly by design and active and reinforced choice. Not for any other reason. Period.
- kelnos 4y ago
  Exactly. There are many places in the world where getting around by transit is much faster and more convenient than driving. It's just rare to find a place in the US where this is the case.
- gottastayfresh 4y ago
  Absolutely! I wasn't implying otherwise. I think in the U.S. the inertia of both design and life choices is more of the problem -- I think convenience captures both of these issues in their present state. I use convenience here not to suggest actual convenience, but the appearance of convenience, much in the way that it's not really control, but the appearance of control that makes us register the preferability of the personal car.

egypturnash 4y ago

When I am on a bike I am definitely not in control of all the people in cars around me, especially the ones who are drunk, are assholes, or are badly-programmed robots who barely know what a “bicycle” is.

ericmay 4y ago
Which would be true of any form of transit, including driving or riding a bus or walking down the street. So I’m not following your point here.
- kipchak 4y ago
  You're unfortunately either more vulnerable to other cars, less able to take action to avoid them or some combination of both. A motorcycle for example is nimble enough to attempt to avoid a collision but is more vulnerable if a collision occurs, while a bus might be sturdier/larger but your presence can't avoid a collision at all. As a group the safest option would be smaller vehicles, but individually each person is better off (in terms of safety during a collision) with something larger.

danaris 4y ago

This is why, when I have to visit a city, I much prefer to park my car at the first convenient opportunity and walk. Having a car is pretty straightforward and definitely a must in the rural areas where I live (sadly, public transit is effectively nonexistent), but driving a car in a city is difficult and often terrifying, specifically because of the limited control (you're stuck going forward at a particular speed, and if you realize too late that the GPS/map/printed out directions/copilot navigator was indicating that street to turn on, you just have to keep going and hope that you can loop back around somehow without losing too much time...or you risk permanent/exorbitantly expensive damage to your car, someone else's car, and/or one or more humans).

thehappypm 4y ago

Wow, could not agree less! In a bike you’re at the mercy of the bikers and drivers around you, with laughable safety features to protect you.

ericmay 4y ago
You’re focusing on these other aspects, not the actual control. I can put my bike in a car, I can ride a bike up a hill or on a dirt trail, a bike is comparatively inexpensive, I can take a bike on a train to another city. Etc. And it would be even more obvious which form of transportation provides the most control if you had bike-first infrastructure. But you’re also not accounting for lots of things completely out of your control, like where highways get built, potholes, funding, insurance rates, the price of rubber for new tires, oil changes, gas stations, etc. It’s the illusion of control. We’ve designed cities specifically so that you can feel like you are in control driving a car. Nothing could be further from the truth.

whakim 4y ago

Yes, but the GP wasn't talking about some objective notion of "control" - they were talking about some subjective "feeling" of control and how that translates to perceptions of risk and danger. Driving a car feels like you're in control because you're the one doing the driving and are isolated from your environment even though (as a sibling comment notes) you're at the mercy of a huge number of factors that you don't perceive. That's why folks don't perceive driving as risky. (Consider airplanes as a contrasting example - extremely safe, but you certainly don't feel "in control".) In that context, cycling doesn't feel like you're "in control" because you're surrounded by large multi-ton vehicles moving significantly faster than you. Walking in urban areas feels safe because of the incredible amount of infrastructure that exists to support pedestrians and the normalcy of walking in those areas.

ericmay 4y ago
Idk. I feel most in control the further away I move from the transit appliance. I’d order it something like this (there are other options here I’m omitting) in order of least to most control: Airplane > cruise ship > car > train > bike > feet But I may just think about this stuff more than most people. I never feel as in control when I’m stuck in a traffic jam or behind a slow driver versus riding a bike. Even trains feel like I have more control because I’m on my feet to/from the train and I could get off at a stop and just walk away. It’s very liberating versus a car.