5 ms·

>Of the top reasons people are happy at work, salary is way down on the list. You're conflating multiple things here. People aren't focusing on money because i

>Of the top reasons people are happy at work, salary is way down on the list. You're conflating multiple things here. People aren't focusing on money because it's the most important part. They focus on money because it's one of the few things that's relatively easy to make tangible ahead of time. Similar goes for things like remote/hybrid, secondary benefits, etc. Many elements on that list, while important, are incredibly difficult to equate in practice without speaking with employees or reading up on the company. Take the following: >1 Appreciation for your work How in the world are you going to evaluate this pre-interview or even post hiring process? Both parties are showing their best selves. It's incredibly abstract and difficult to measure. >2 Good relationships with colleagues Again, difficult to measure. Establishing good relationships takes time. Additionally, most places (at least here) have people who are decent to get along with, they aren't filled with horror individuals. At least, I'd hope hiring processes would at least filter the most obvious nutcases out after all those hours spent. >3 Good work-life balance Here's one you can measure much more easily. Few core hours and a "do whatever whenever" mentality outside of core hours attracts individuals. Still I don't see most companies post it. It goes far beyond hybrid and remote work, and even that is already hard to pull out of them. Then at the end of the interview, you get a "yeah we have a flexible schedule. Our hours are from 7 to 7." Great.. I guess.

ipaddr 4y ago
Getting that good work life balance issue settled usually takes 2 or 3 rounds to pry some useful info out.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Great. We're talking about responding to an ad. Your response equates to just dealing with 1-4 hours of work, often requiring some juggling from the candidate's side (= more time), just to get some of the most important information. Not only are you supporting my argument, you're also showcasing how ridiculously inefficient the hiring process is from the candidate's side. Without it being obvious whether this is a net gain for the employer.
  - jaredsohn 4y ago
    >Not only are you supporting my argument, you're also showcasing how ridiculously inefficient the hiring process is I don't think the GP was arguing with you; was the poster's first comment on this article.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  Not really. I'm paid to work 40h/week. Am I going to be expected to be working more than that? If so, I'll pass. If there's occasional overtime, sure, fine. But do I get paid extra for it? Does it get banked into extra PTO? And so on, stuff I ask prospective employers in the first conversation.
  - germandiago 4y ago
    This is a difficult topic. We evolved to the 40h/week mentality. This is a big luck for us. I think things should be more based on goals than on time itself, honestly. What I mean is: if you work 40h but you do not deliver anything, how is that good compared to someone that in 32 delivers more? We have to put ourselves on the side of the employer also, even if some people hate them.
    - d4mi3n 4y ago
      This is a management problem, not an employee problem. Figuring out if I can be outperformed by someone working less hours than me is irrelevant to my relationship to my employer. I'd go further to say that it's irrelevant barring frequency of the event having an impact on the broader job market. For any team, you will have a range of performance. For any individual, you will have different work styles. This is normal. This is OK. Asking an employee make this a consideration when negotiating with an employer is a dereliction of duty on behalf of the hiring manager and difficult for the candidate to judge due to information asymmetry. If you're building a team, you should know what kind of talent fits on it and make an offer on those merits. That's what being a hiring manager entails.
      - germandiago 4y ago
        There is always a feedback cycle also I think. You can tell your manager why something could work or not. The manager is the responsible from the direction POV but it is also true that we are responsible to some extent of how we perform. Maybe not from an executive or strategic POV but yes from a deliver-what-you-are-asked for POV. What I mean, all in all, is: we all should care. That's why it is called an organization. I agree with job about the job of a manager. I am just telling you that each one has her responsibility. All of us.
the_arun 4y ago
Work Life Balance is purely subjective & depends on personal preferences. Your balance in life != mine. It also depends on : 1. How creative/smart we are in achieving outcomes with less work. 2. Would my company provides a platform to accelerate this?
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Whether it's subjective or not doesn't matter to the topic at hand. The status quo is, you're not getting that information upfront. It would very much be useful for you to know before sinking in several hours of effort and accumulate stress, only to figure out it doesn't at all match your preferences and the remainder of the package doesn't make up for it. It is also one of the few things that companies can do which won't increase costs when practiced properly. That's the whole point of the root comment, and it falls flat given most job ads are secretive about almost everything.
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  Sure, your life balance doesn't equal mine. That doesn't mean that either of us should be expected to work more or less. If you want to work more, get a second job or invest time into a structured hobby. It doesn't generally depend on how creative/smart we are, nor even our outcomes with less work. You working on a task that is easy for you doesn't mean that I should work more and you should work less. It really just means that we can expect different things from you than me, which is realistic so long as they aren't vastly different on the same task. Work-life balance doesn't really depend on anything the company does other than having policies that allow for it and then actually following through.
Varqu 4y ago
I agree on that and we had similar observations on the job boards that we manage (each of them has mandatory salary brackets if you want to post a job[1]) Obviously, salary is not the only criteria for picking a new role, but by publishing it upfront, you quickly sort out the expectations (which leads to less churn at later stages) and also contribute to a more inclusive and fair job market. Some other points that we got as feedback from the tech communities: - publishing tech stacks & engineering methodologies is quite useful too - it's nice if a company provides a contact person for questions BEFORE applying - you should act swiftly and not let candidates wait for weeks for your decision [1] https://swissdevjobs.ch/ https://swissdevjobs.ch/ https://devitjobs.uk/ https://devitjobs.uk/ https://devitjobs.us/ https://devitjobs.us/ https://germantechjobs.de/ https://germantechjobs.de/

ipaddr 4y ago

Getting that good work life balance issue settled usually takes 2 or 3 rounds to pry some useful info out.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Great. We're talking about responding to an ad. Your response equates to just dealing with 1-4 hours of work, often requiring some juggling from the candidate's side (= more time), just to get some of the most important information. Not only are you supporting my argument, you're also showcasing how ridiculously inefficient the hiring process is from the candidate's side. Without it being obvious whether this is a net gain for the employer.
- jaredsohn 4y ago
  >Not only are you supporting my argument, you're also showcasing how ridiculously inefficient the hiring process is I don't think the GP was arguing with you; was the poster's first comment on this article.
nibbleshifter 4y ago
Not really. I'm paid to work 40h/week. Am I going to be expected to be working more than that? If so, I'll pass. If there's occasional overtime, sure, fine. But do I get paid extra for it? Does it get banked into extra PTO? And so on, stuff I ask prospective employers in the first conversation.
- germandiago 4y ago
  This is a difficult topic. We evolved to the 40h/week mentality. This is a big luck for us. I think things should be more based on goals than on time itself, honestly. What I mean is: if you work 40h but you do not deliver anything, how is that good compared to someone that in 32 delivers more? We have to put ourselves on the side of the employer also, even if some people hate them.
  - d4mi3n 4y ago
    This is a management problem, not an employee problem. Figuring out if I can be outperformed by someone working less hours than me is irrelevant to my relationship to my employer. I'd go further to say that it's irrelevant barring frequency of the event having an impact on the broader job market. For any team, you will have a range of performance. For any individual, you will have different work styles. This is normal. This is OK. Asking an employee make this a consideration when negotiating with an employer is a dereliction of duty on behalf of the hiring manager and difficult for the candidate to judge due to information asymmetry. If you're building a team, you should know what kind of talent fits on it and make an offer on those merits. That's what being a hiring manager entails.
    - germandiago 4y ago
      There is always a feedback cycle also I think. You can tell your manager why something could work or not. The manager is the responsible from the direction POV but it is also true that we are responsible to some extent of how we perform. Maybe not from an executive or strategic POV but yes from a deliver-what-you-are-asked for POV. What I mean, all in all, is: we all should care. That's why it is called an organization. I agree with job about the job of a manager. I am just telling you that each one has her responsibility. All of us.

the_arun 4y ago

Work Life Balance is purely subjective & depends on personal preferences. Your balance in life != mine. It also depends on : 1. How creative/smart we are in achieving outcomes with less work. 2. Would my company provides a platform to accelerate this?

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Whether it's subjective or not doesn't matter to the topic at hand. The status quo is, you're not getting that information upfront. It would very much be useful for you to know before sinking in several hours of effort and accumulate stress, only to figure out it doesn't at all match your preferences and the remainder of the package doesn't make up for it. It is also one of the few things that companies can do which won't increase costs when practiced properly. That's the whole point of the root comment, and it falls flat given most job ads are secretive about almost everything.
Broken_Hippo 4y ago
Sure, your life balance doesn't equal mine. That doesn't mean that either of us should be expected to work more or less. If you want to work more, get a second job or invest time into a structured hobby. It doesn't generally depend on how creative/smart we are, nor even our outcomes with less work. You working on a task that is easy for you doesn't mean that I should work more and you should work less. It really just means that we can expect different things from you than me, which is realistic so long as they aren't vastly different on the same task. Work-life balance doesn't really depend on anything the company does other than having policies that allow for it and then actually following through.

Varqu 4y ago

I agree on that and we had similar observations on the job boards that we manage (each of them has mandatory salary brackets if you want to post a job[1]) Obviously, salary is not the only criteria for picking a new role, but by publishing it upfront, you quickly sort out the expectations (which leads to less churn at later stages) and also contribute to a more inclusive and fair job market. Some other points that we got as feedback from the tech communities: - publishing tech stacks & engineering methodologies is quite useful too - it's nice if a company provides a contact person for questions BEFORE applying - you should act swiftly and not let candidates wait for weeks for your decision [1] https://swissdevjobs.ch/ https://swissdevjobs.ch/ https://devitjobs.uk/ https://devitjobs.uk/ https://devitjobs.us/ https://devitjobs.us/ https://germantechjobs.de/ https://germantechjobs.de/