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> coalition of people who agree on “bigger government offering more services” and little else. If I could vote in the US I’d vote democrat (and likely join the

by jen20 4y ago

> coalition of people who agree on “bigger government offering more services” and little else. If I could vote in the US I’d vote democrat (and likely join them) because I don’t want Christian fundamentalists to be in power, not because I believe in their policies and especially not in their abilities. There may be a coalition of people who believe in what you think, but I’d wager the vast majority of support comes from those who simply think they’re less bad than the alternative.

rayiner 4y ago
> I don’t want Christian fundamentalists to be in power America is as religious, in terms of percentage of people praying daily, as Bangladesh: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-levels-of-prayer-u-s-is-an-outlier-among-wealthy-nations https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-l.... That includes core Democrat constituencies, like Black people. 76% of Black Protestants, who overwhelmingly vote Democrat, think the Bible should have at least some influence on US laws: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/04/13/half-of-americans-say-bible-should-influence-u-s-laws-including-28-who-favor-it-over-the-will-of-the-people https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/04/13/half-of-ame.... Most atheists and agnostics are Democrats, but they're a pretty niche constituency within the party.
- jen20 4y ago
  I don't care - I still don't want them in power any more than I would want to live in Afghanistan with the Taliban in power as a non-Muslim, and consequently would vote to keep them out, almost regardless of other policy. Furthermore, those who think the Bible should have influence on US laws fundamentally fail to understand the very basics of the first amendment of the constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Allowing influence of a particular religious sect over laws is exactly akin to a state religion, which is expressly unconstitutional.
  - nathanaldensr 4y ago
    You are aware that Christian morals and ethics explicitly were sources of inspiration, energy, and direction for the country's founding--both as an event and its documents--right? You are aware that those principles are largely responsible for you being able to freely type your message on Hacker News, right?
    - cheese_it 4y ago
      Do you have any sources for that claim? Because I've heard the argument that it was actually the Enlightenment, and the removal of religion from government (e.g. separation of church and state, reason and science in place of dogmatism), that was the primary source of inspiration for the country's founding. A search for "Declaration of Independence" with "Enlightenment" provides many references for this.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    > I don't care - I still don't want them in power That’s fine but it’s not what we’re talking about, which is what keeps the democratic coalition together. Opposition to Christianity having a public role isn’t it.
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    > Allowing influence of a particular religious sect over laws is exactly akin to a state religion, which is expressly unconstitutional. But doesn't this argument also mean "Allowing influence of religious people over laws (e.g. allowing them to vote) is unconstitutional"? You might think that you're being completely neutral when you apply your atheist worldview to political questions, and that it is only those weird out-groups that are biased with their desire for laws that your in-group opposes, but from their perspective you are being just as biased by your religious beliefs (i.e. your beliefs about religions). If you really think that the First Amendment was written with the intent to invalidate any policy which can be supported by some interpretation of the Bible, then you haven't thought through the consequences of that.
- jmyeet 4y ago
  > 76% of Black Protestants, who overwhelmingly vote Democrat, think the Bible should have at least some influence on US laws This is kind of a vague opinion. The Bible says many things, many of them contradictory and some of them just outright ridiculous. Let's just pick one gem, Exodus 21:7-11 [1]: > When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter. > If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Here we have slavery, selling your daughter into slavery and polygamy all in one. Should this influence the law? If the answer is "yes", well you're crazy. If the answer is "no" then you've conceded the Bible isn't an authority and you can freely choose to ignore what pats of it you want. There are others such as putting people to death who work on the Sabbath. The issue of the Bible is most brought up when it comes to abortion (and gay marriage). The Bible is in fact silent on the issue. Up until the 1970s, white evangelicals didn't actually care about abortion [2]. Catholics had some opposition but it wasn't front and center. What mobilized evangelicals against abortion was actually a deliberate political movement to opposed racial desegregation, as sparked by whites-only schools in Mississippi and Bob Jones University. So my point is that I don't put a lot of stock on statements like "the Bible should have at least some influence" on US laws because it doesn't mean anything. The question itself is a form of manipulation. I mean the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill" and murder is a crime. Does that meet the standard of "some influence?" [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021%3A7-11&version=NLT https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021%3A7... [2]: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/10/abortion-history-right-white-evangelical-1970s-00031480 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/10/abortion-h...
  - Clubber 4y ago
    >Does that meet the standard of "some influence?" I would argue that all of western culture and civilization has been influenced heavily, almost exclusively by Christianity (including the Hebrew Bible), at least since Constantine.

by jen20 4y ago

rayiner 4y ago

> I don’t want Christian fundamentalists to be in power America is as religious, in terms of percentage of people praying daily, as Bangladesh: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-levels-of-prayer-u-s-is-an-outlier-among-wealthy-nations https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-l.... That includes core Democrat constituencies, like Black people. 76% of Black Protestants, who overwhelmingly vote Democrat, think the Bible should have at least some influence on US laws: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/04/13/half-of-americans-say-bible-should-influence-u-s-laws-including-28-who-favor-it-over-the-will-of-the-people https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/04/13/half-of-ame.... Most atheists and agnostics are Democrats, but they're a pretty niche constituency within the party.

jen20 4y ago
I don't care - I still don't want them in power any more than I would want to live in Afghanistan with the Taliban in power as a non-Muslim, and consequently would vote to keep them out, almost regardless of other policy. Furthermore, those who think the Bible should have influence on US laws fundamentally fail to understand the very basics of the first amendment of the constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Allowing influence of a particular religious sect over laws is exactly akin to a state religion, which is expressly unconstitutional.
- nathanaldensr 4y ago
  You are aware that Christian morals and ethics explicitly were sources of inspiration, energy, and direction for the country's founding--both as an event and its documents--right? You are aware that those principles are largely responsible for you being able to freely type your message on Hacker News, right?
  - cheese_it 4y ago
    Do you have any sources for that claim? Because I've heard the argument that it was actually the Enlightenment, and the removal of religion from government (e.g. separation of church and state, reason and science in place of dogmatism), that was the primary source of inspiration for the country's founding. A search for "Declaration of Independence" with "Enlightenment" provides many references for this.
- rayiner 4y ago
  > I don't care - I still don't want them in power That’s fine but it’s not what we’re talking about, which is what keeps the democratic coalition together. Opposition to Christianity having a public role isn’t it.
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  > Allowing influence of a particular religious sect over laws is exactly akin to a state religion, which is expressly unconstitutional. But doesn't this argument also mean "Allowing influence of religious people over laws (e.g. allowing them to vote) is unconstitutional"? You might think that you're being completely neutral when you apply your atheist worldview to political questions, and that it is only those weird out-groups that are biased with their desire for laws that your in-group opposes, but from their perspective you are being just as biased by your religious beliefs (i.e. your beliefs about religions). If you really think that the First Amendment was written with the intent to invalidate any policy which can be supported by some interpretation of the Bible, then you haven't thought through the consequences of that.
jmyeet 4y ago
> 76% of Black Protestants, who overwhelmingly vote Democrat, think the Bible should have at least some influence on US laws This is kind of a vague opinion. The Bible says many things, many of them contradictory and some of them just outright ridiculous. Let's just pick one gem, Exodus 21:7-11 [1]: > When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter. > If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Here we have slavery, selling your daughter into slavery and polygamy all in one. Should this influence the law? If the answer is "yes", well you're crazy. If the answer is "no" then you've conceded the Bible isn't an authority and you can freely choose to ignore what pats of it you want. There are others such as putting people to death who work on the Sabbath. The issue of the Bible is most brought up when it comes to abortion (and gay marriage). The Bible is in fact silent on the issue. Up until the 1970s, white evangelicals didn't actually care about abortion [2]. Catholics had some opposition but it wasn't front and center. What mobilized evangelicals against abortion was actually a deliberate political movement to opposed racial desegregation, as sparked by whites-only schools in Mississippi and Bob Jones University. So my point is that I don't put a lot of stock on statements like "the Bible should have at least some influence" on US laws because it doesn't mean anything. The question itself is a form of manipulation. I mean the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill" and murder is a crime. Does that meet the standard of "some influence?" [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021%3A7-11&version=NLT https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021%3A7... [2]: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/10/abortion-history-right-white-evangelical-1970s-00031480 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/10/abortion-h...
- Clubber 4y ago
  >Does that meet the standard of "some influence?" I would argue that all of western culture and civilization has been influenced heavily, almost exclusively by Christianity (including the Hebrew Bible), at least since Constantine.