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In contrast, the EU is moving boldly forward with the Digital Markets Act [1]. It looks good on paper but I wonder what it means in practice. I wonder if this l

In contrast, the EU is moving boldly forward with the Digital Markets Act [1]. It looks good on paper but I wonder what it means in practice. I wonder if this legislation will fizzle out too. [1] https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022/07/18/dma-council-gives-final-approval-to-new-rules-for-fair-competition-online/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022...

atlasunshrugged 4y ago
Which ironically may slow things down in the U.S. even further (if the EU passes their legislation which seems very likely that they will)... many (American) policymakers might think, "why not sit for another year on domestic legislation and see if this ends up like GDPR with a bunch of unintended consequences before rolling it out in the U.S.?" edit in parenthesis for clarity
spywaregorilla 4y ago
I just hope it has spillover effects into the US. Platforms like this are the biggest trench of economic rent the world has ever seen.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > hope it has spillover effects into the US Probably not, and for good reason. If Europe is moving first, it makes sense to wait and see how their approach fairs. We’ve learned a lot about what works and more about what doesn’t with GDPR, a bit more from v2 in California.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    But at the same time I expect the iphones will all be usb-c compatible by 2024 globally, not just in the EU I'm not sure how much to expect in the US. Is a one time VPN connection all you'll need in order to get sideloading working?
    - freedomben 4y ago
      I agree, I think it will spill over. It may harm the app store revenue, but it's going to result in a big adoption of Apple hardware by people who previously wouldn't have. When Apple loosening the reins doesn't result in Armageddon like so many people here seem to think it will, US customers will also pressure Apple to similar policies, and they will do it. It probably will hurt app store revenues, but Apple makes such a premium on hardware that it may make up or even exceed the losses from software competition.
      - spywaregorilla 4y ago
        > It probably will hurt app store revenues, but Apple makes such a premium on hardware that it may make up or even exceed the losses from software competition. Seems very unlikely to me. the profit margin on app store tax is going to be extremely high. The expert witness at the epic games trial estimated an 80% profit margin on 20 billion dollars of revenue. Comes out to $16B profit out of their total 25ish. That doesn't just disappear if apple allows sideloading, but it could easily shrink a great a deal. Even if apple somehow manages to gain greater market share, I just don't see it coming out as a net positive for them.
        freedomben 4y ago
        > Comes out to $16B profit out of their total 25ish Oh man, that's a high percentage. I was under the impression it was closer to 50%. With those numbers, you may be right. Although, I assume they will heavily market their own store as the only "true" app store and only secure one, etc, and a large amount of customers will stick with just theirs, so I would expect it wouldn't take too major of a hit, although if big names like Epic boycott the App Store that could definitely mess up that strategy.
        spywaregorilla 4y ago
        It's not that they need to boycott it. It's that they need to offer it from 30% less through their own channels. When there's real competition in the market, apple will likely need to adjust their fee strategy.
- klipt 4y ago
  If Europe wants these regulations and US doesn't, could it be because global rent seeking by US corporations ultimately benefits the US economy at the expense of other countries' economies?
  - permo-w 4y ago
    it certainly benefits US corporations at the expense of other countries' economies
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    Eh. It is the case that it benefits the US economy at the expense of others. I wouldn't go assuming that the difference in regulations is a precedent or primarily an effect of this. I think the US will catch up.
- freedomben 4y ago
  I expect that when Apple complies, they will see huge market share gains, and they will realize that doing the same thing in the US is a good idea. People who already use Apple, are still going to use Apple, but people who don't because they want the freedom of Android might jump to Apple once that platform is more in line with their wants.
  - KerrAvon 4y ago
    But Apple doesn’t care about market share. It is far more profitable now than it would be in a race to the bottom as a commodity hardware maker.
    - freedomben 4y ago
      > But Apple doesn’t care about market share. Are you sure? I distinctly remember them boasting in a keynote about how many Android users were using their app to switch to iOS. I could definitely believe that it's not a high strategic priority though. > It is far more profitable now than it would be in a race to the bottom as a commodity hardware maker. Agreed, but I don't think it would have to turn into a race to the bottom. Apple is a luxury brand now, and I expect they would continue to maintain that. The Apple logo is very much a status symbol (particularly for the young. My teenagers are literally made fun of at school for having "Androids" instead of iPhones), and I wouldn't expect that to change much. In fact I think as more people adopt it, being an Android user would become more of an aberration from cultural expectations than it already is.
    - newaccount2021 4y ago
  - kmlx 4y ago
    > I expect that when Apple complies, they will see huge market share gains > but people who don't because they want the freedom of Android might jump to Apple once that platform is more in line with their wants. i don’t think so for two reasons: 1. people in europe have much less disposable income and as such prefer cheaper devices. 2. people don’t really care about the so called “freedom of android” thus android has a steady 60 something percent in europe and as long as there are super cheap android devices, this will continue.
Isinlor 4y ago
Digital Markets Act is done deal, only formalities left. It has support of the EU Council, Parliament and Commission. If you read DMA it gives quite a lot of executive powers to EU Commission, so that approach can be adjusted as needed. As long as there will be political points in bashing American big-tech, it will not fizzle out.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- thewarrior 4y ago
  America has a lot more leverage over the EU now. I doubt it will be smooth sailing.
- nikanj 4y ago
  No such thing as a done deal when all parties have billions to burn on lawyers & appeals
endisneigh 4y ago
The main difference is that the EU has no meaningful competition and so the only thing they really can do is legislate since innovation doesn’t seem like an option for the EU. I remember when Nokia represented top tier consumer tech. Oh well.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  EU is not one of the richest places on the planet thanks to the museum tickets, obviously there's lot's of innovation happening. In fact, EU is taking the lightweight and pro free market approach here. US tried to destroy TikTok instead of regulate it.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    The EU is rich but it’s not due to excellence in consumer tech. If anything TikTok is a great example since Shorts is catching up (albeit very slowly). What are the areas in consumer tech where Europe enjoys the worldwide advantage in sales and mindshare?
    - mrtksn 4y ago
      There are other things in life and business than consumer tech and consumer tech is not only photo sharing.
      - endisneigh 4y ago
        I never claimed consumer tech is only photo sharing? You’re the one who even brought up Tiktok to begin with, lol. Sad how it’s so hard to give examples of the EUs excellence in mainstream consumer tech, I guess. There’s nothing wrong with the EU legislating since they can’t win the market share through traditional means. It’s a valid strategy. Let’s just not pretend, please. The restrictions that will be put in place may be what Europe needs to compete, but let’s just act like Europe is already in a strong competitive position.
    - poniko 4y ago
tyrfing 4y ago
> I wonder what it means in practice The requirements to provide data to business users and to advertisers are pretty interesting. Same for search engines having to sell all user data that they have.

atlasunshrugged 4y ago

Which ironically may slow things down in the U.S. even further (if the EU passes their legislation which seems very likely that they will)... many (American) policymakers might think, "why not sit for another year on domestic legislation and see if this ends up like GDPR with a bunch of unintended consequences before rolling it out in the U.S.?" edit in parenthesis for clarity

spywaregorilla 4y ago

I just hope it has spillover effects into the US. Platforms like this are the biggest trench of economic rent the world has ever seen.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> hope it has spillover effects into the US Probably not, and for good reason. If Europe is moving first, it makes sense to wait and see how their approach fairs. We’ve learned a lot about what works and more about what doesn’t with GDPR, a bit more from v2 in California.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  But at the same time I expect the iphones will all be usb-c compatible by 2024 globally, not just in the EU I'm not sure how much to expect in the US. Is a one time VPN connection all you'll need in order to get sideloading working?
  - freedomben 4y ago
    I agree, I think it will spill over. It may harm the app store revenue, but it's going to result in a big adoption of Apple hardware by people who previously wouldn't have. When Apple loosening the reins doesn't result in Armageddon like so many people here seem to think it will, US customers will also pressure Apple to similar policies, and they will do it. It probably will hurt app store revenues, but Apple makes such a premium on hardware that it may make up or even exceed the losses from software competition.
    - spywaregorilla 4y ago
      > It probably will hurt app store revenues, but Apple makes such a premium on hardware that it may make up or even exceed the losses from software competition. Seems very unlikely to me. the profit margin on app store tax is going to be extremely high. The expert witness at the epic games trial estimated an 80% profit margin on 20 billion dollars of revenue. Comes out to $16B profit out of their total 25ish. That doesn't just disappear if apple allows sideloading, but it could easily shrink a great a deal. Even if apple somehow manages to gain greater market share, I just don't see it coming out as a net positive for them.
      - freedomben 4y ago
        > Comes out to $16B profit out of their total 25ish Oh man, that's a high percentage. I was under the impression it was closer to 50%. With those numbers, you may be right. Although, I assume they will heavily market their own store as the only "true" app store and only secure one, etc, and a large amount of customers will stick with just theirs, so I would expect it wouldn't take too major of a hit, although if big names like Epic boycott the App Store that could definitely mess up that strategy.
        spywaregorilla 4y ago
        It's not that they need to boycott it. It's that they need to offer it from 30% less through their own channels. When there's real competition in the market, apple will likely need to adjust their fee strategy.
klipt 4y ago
If Europe wants these regulations and US doesn't, could it be because global rent seeking by US corporations ultimately benefits the US economy at the expense of other countries' economies?
- permo-w 4y ago
  it certainly benefits US corporations at the expense of other countries' economies
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  Eh. It is the case that it benefits the US economy at the expense of others. I wouldn't go assuming that the difference in regulations is a precedent or primarily an effect of this. I think the US will catch up.
freedomben 4y ago
I expect that when Apple complies, they will see huge market share gains, and they will realize that doing the same thing in the US is a good idea. People who already use Apple, are still going to use Apple, but people who don't because they want the freedom of Android might jump to Apple once that platform is more in line with their wants.
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  But Apple doesn’t care about market share. It is far more profitable now than it would be in a race to the bottom as a commodity hardware maker.
  - freedomben 4y ago
    > But Apple doesn’t care about market share. Are you sure? I distinctly remember them boasting in a keynote about how many Android users were using their app to switch to iOS. I could definitely believe that it's not a high strategic priority though. > It is far more profitable now than it would be in a race to the bottom as a commodity hardware maker. Agreed, but I don't think it would have to turn into a race to the bottom. Apple is a luxury brand now, and I expect they would continue to maintain that. The Apple logo is very much a status symbol (particularly for the young. My teenagers are literally made fun of at school for having "Androids" instead of iPhones), and I wouldn't expect that to change much. In fact I think as more people adopt it, being an Android user would become more of an aberration from cultural expectations than it already is.
  - newaccount2021 4y ago
- kmlx 4y ago
  > I expect that when Apple complies, they will see huge market share gains > but people who don't because they want the freedom of Android might jump to Apple once that platform is more in line with their wants. i don’t think so for two reasons: 1. people in europe have much less disposable income and as such prefer cheaper devices. 2. people don’t really care about the so called “freedom of android” thus android has a steady 60 something percent in europe and as long as there are super cheap android devices, this will continue.

Isinlor 4y ago

Digital Markets Act is done deal, only formalities left. It has support of the EU Council, Parliament and Commission. If you read DMA it gives quite a lot of executive powers to EU Commission, so that approach can be adjusted as needed. As long as there will be political points in bashing American big-tech, it will not fizzle out.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
thewarrior 4y ago
America has a lot more leverage over the EU now. I doubt it will be smooth sailing.
nikanj 4y ago
No such thing as a done deal when all parties have billions to burn on lawyers & appeals

endisneigh 4y ago

The main difference is that the EU has no meaningful competition and so the only thing they really can do is legislate since innovation doesn’t seem like an option for the EU. I remember when Nokia represented top tier consumer tech. Oh well.

mrtksn 4y ago
EU is not one of the richest places on the planet thanks to the museum tickets, obviously there's lot's of innovation happening. In fact, EU is taking the lightweight and pro free market approach here. US tried to destroy TikTok instead of regulate it.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  The EU is rich but it’s not due to excellence in consumer tech. If anything TikTok is a great example since Shorts is catching up (albeit very slowly). What are the areas in consumer tech where Europe enjoys the worldwide advantage in sales and mindshare?
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    There are other things in life and business than consumer tech and consumer tech is not only photo sharing.
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      I never claimed consumer tech is only photo sharing? You’re the one who even brought up Tiktok to begin with, lol. Sad how it’s so hard to give examples of the EUs excellence in mainstream consumer tech, I guess. There’s nothing wrong with the EU legislating since they can’t win the market share through traditional means. It’s a valid strategy. Let’s just not pretend, please. The restrictions that will be put in place may be what Europe needs to compete, but let’s just act like Europe is already in a strong competitive position.
  - poniko 4y ago

tyrfing 4y ago

> I wonder what it means in practice The requirements to provide data to business users and to advertisers are pretty interesting. Same for search engines having to sell all user data that they have.