7 ms·

This is awful. I've canceled subscriptions so many times only to get billed again, and again, blabla "it's a bug in the billing system" run around. So now ven

This is awful. I've canceled subscriptions so many times only to get billed again, and again, blabla "it's a bug in the billing system" run around. So now vendors can keep auto billing with dark patterns such as unnavigable automated phone lines, and visa is going to take their side? (because the merchant will have proof of billing history?) I hope Amex doesn't adopt these rules. I am going to think strongly about canceling my visa cards as a response. Bitrix24 a SaaS crm/VoIP service was the worst abuser I can recall (kept randomly reappearing a $10.00 months after id asked visa to block them). Free Trial My ass.

InfamousRece 4y ago
Cancellation is not always easy. Any “recurring” charge will helpfully reopen your closed account. I guess it’s better to just use prepaid gift cards for subscriptions.
vineyardmike 4y ago
I think if you can prove that you tried to cancel and the merchant screwed up you should be fine. Hopefully you have a paper trail of them admitting its a “bug in Billings”. Aside: One of the best things about AMEX is their customer support around chargebacks and I agree I hope they stay super friendly to this.
- twblalock 4y ago
  I switched back to Amex despite them offering worse rewards than my other card because of this. Other card: I returned an item, with proof of delivery via UPS tracking. Never got a refund. Opened a dispute. Weeks later, the dispute was resolved in the merchant's favor despite the merchant providing nothing as evidence except the original receipt. I had to call the help line, deal with several uncomprehending service reps until one of them re-opened the dispute, asking me to resubmit the same documents I submitted the first time! Finally the dispute was resolved in my favor a month later. Amex: I ordered some items from a local store to be delivered and the order was cancelled without my money being refunded. I received an email with a few questions, which I answered. A few weeks later the dispute was resolved in my favor. I still need to carry another card because some merchants don't accept Amex, but I use the Amex for everything I possibly can. I'm giving up some cash back rewards to do so, and I'm also paying an annual fee, but that's a small price to pay for getting better service when something goes wrong.
  - kylehotchkiss 4y ago
    Amex Gold is pretty decent for travel rewards (4x for food/groceries) and amex points are ranked pretty well for value by the points guy (https://thepointsguy.com/guide/amex-points-value/ https://thepointsguy.com/guide/amex-points-value/) - certainly structured differently than cash back but free travel with a year or two of normal expenses isn't too bad a deal
    - twblalock 4y ago
      In the past few years the concept of "travel" has become a bit more difficult. I decided I'd rather have the simplicity of cash back instead.
- yencabulator 4y ago
  So what you're saying is that the vendors will now strive to make it harder to "prove you tried to cancel", just like they're already striving to make it harder to cancel.
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    Send an email to legal@company.com or ceo@company.com or any known-good generic email they have with a note saying “route this to legal”if the normal gui or CUstomer Support team doesn’t work. I’ve heard investor relations is always a good address that’s monitored by people that have spare time. You have now officially provided a written notice to company. If it’s a really big charge or something serious, send a certified letter. That means the US government is now testifying to the time and date of them receiving letter. Share that with Visa and see if that changes their opinion on the chargeback. Be polite, not emotional. Don’t threaten a lawyer or use any language you’d see on a TV legal show. If you’re in California feel free to cite their violation of this law [1]. Don’t threaten to sue. Don’t threaten a lawyer. Just mention that you have the right and you can’t use the UI as expected. If it’s bad you can say something like “if this isn’t resolved I may avail myself of other options afforded by $LAW”. Don’t specify what, don’t threaten they’ll regret it. Just let them know you are someone who is serious and non emotional. “Company X, I have tried to cancel this service but I am unable to due to X. After talking with CS they said it was due to $Bug. I talked with $Person at $Date. Let this serve as a formal notice that I will no longer be paying for service and no longer wish to be charged. I will be instructing Visa to reject further charges after $new_future_date. Please Acknowledge Reciept of this notice. Signed Person. Todays Date is X” https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/04/californias-new-online-cancellation-law-benefits-many-disgruntled-subscribers-in-other-places-too/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/04/californias-new-online-can...
    - yencabulator 4y ago
      > After talking with CS they said it was due to $Bug. Customer support will be (/is) trained to never say such a thing, then. Also, you are normalizing the idea that customers can be forced to jump through arbitrary hoops; you've just invented one yourself. I'd much rather have this behavior be illegal (see recent FTC ruling).
- mission_failed 4y ago
  Meanwhile Amex sided with an Australian airline that cancelled flights due to covid, despite the airline being in the news as in financial strife and going into administration.
- loeg 4y ago
  How do you prove to Visa's satisfaction that you called to cancel, for example?
  - thaeli 4y ago
    Hard copy sent via registered mail? There's probably a service for this.
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    Ask them what they want as proof? I think a certified mail to legal of the company (and a reasonable period of time for them to correct) is probably a good start. If they actually tell you the bill was a mistake, that should definitely be proof.
- dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
  I never use Amex because they're the only card that has denied me a chargeback. Basically the hotel runs a nice little scam and Amex enables it. They seem to be very shy about accepting chargebacks to hotels. The scam was that you'd book a cancellable room and the hotel would cancel your booking after they accepted it due to "unavailability of the room" (wtf), then rebook an identical "alternative" room "at the cheapest rate" which happens to be an uncancellable room at $1 less. Why? Because they are impossible to find. No taxi driver can find them. Maybe don't exist. By the time you find this out you can't cancel the room.
rurp 4y ago
I totally agree. Chargebacks are one of the few tools consumers have to fight back against shady companies. I think I've only done one or two chargebacks in my life, but I have threatened them other times when dealing with dishonest companies, which usually leads to them suddenly resolving an "impossible" issue. If Visa ends up crippling this ability there's no chance I'll use their cards again.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  > If Visa ends up crippling this ability there's no chance I'll use their cards again. Curious how this makes other options more competitive. If liberal dispute policies are one of the value props of using a CC, and merchants eat the fees, the value of using a CC declines if dispute resolution is tightened up making it closer to parity of irreversible funds transfers (although there is still the float component not yet solved for in the financial UX of most financial service providers). https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32098635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32098635
- newhotelowner 4y ago
  It also use by customers to get what they want. Just yesterday, a guest called and asked to return 3rd night stay because it was more than the 2nd night room rate. Guest booked the room online and had a confirmation email with a daily rate, signed a physical registration card that shows daily rate during check in but insisted that we are overcharging him. He thretened us with a chargeback. I returned the money because fighting chargeback is a losing battle for us. They booked 8 rooms as a group, and I basically told him, that they are not welcome here next year and he should explained that to his group why we won't let them stay. Also told him, I am going to call everyone in his group and tell them not to book at our location. --- A couple weeks ago, bank called and wanted to verify the charge. Bank wanted to know if the charge was valid. I told them it was charged through chip reader, and I have a video of the guest using the card. She is like, thats all I need. I m going to deny the chargeback. A lot of guest book room, and when they forget to cancel they use chargeback.
  - 4y ago
phpisthebest 4y ago
This is why I use capital ones service to create a new number for every vendor (similar to privacy.com) then I can just turn off that card once I cancel the service
- abfan1127 4y ago
  which service is this? Do you have a link?
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    It is part of their eno service https://www.capitalone.com/digital/eno/virtual-card-numbers/ https://www.capitalone.com/digital/eno/virtual-card-numbers/
  - stubish 4y ago
    Wise (wise.com, formerly Transfer Wise) now let you create virtual credit cards. Accounts with them seem to be available to most of the planet.
- heliodor 4y ago
  Citi offers virtual numbers too. Mercury does too. And many others.
snoopy_telex 4y ago
Privacy dot com. It's the only thing I use for anything that's not a major player (Amazonish). It's saved me a lot of time and hassle. Cancel the account and the card at the same time.
- AareyBaba 4y ago
  Are you comfortable with the recent change in Privacy.com ? They are using Patriot Bank out of North Dakota as an intermediary. Previously Privacy.com would directly debit from your checking account. In the new process you are signing up for a credit card with Patriot Bank under the hood. They pass on your checking account info to Patriot Bank and somehow money gets exchanged. I don't fully understand the process and don't trust men-in-the-middle like this. I wasn't satisfied with the information I got from Privacy.com customer service. Has anyone researched this and confirmed there are no shenanigans in the new process. I used to use Privacy for many years but stopped because of this.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    What specifically is your concern about that new process?
    - AareyBaba 4y ago
      Old process: Me -> Privacy.com -> My checking account New process: Me -> Privacy.com -> Patriot Bank credit account -> My checking account. My concern is I am forced to sign up for Patriot Bank credit services. Also Patriot Bank gets my checking account information.
      - snoopy_telex 4y ago
        I actually use a bastion bank account so privacy and patriot never get my real one. I push money to the bastion bank and if they do something funky, my exposure is limited.
  - moduspol 4y ago
danlugo92 4y ago
www.privacy.com
jimbob45 4y ago
It cuts both ways. You could make a very strong argument that "friendly fraud" is the single reason that the porn industry is having to turn to crypto. Husbands are frequently caught by their spouses and, while pretending that the charge was fraudulent, commit "friendly fraud" themselves. I, for one, am very happy to see Visa taking steps against this. We've kvetched for years over how how much power payment processors have in the system and now they're finally doing something about it (themselves, to boot!).
notyourday 4y ago
And with this single change Visa just ensured that no one other than Apple and Google has a chance of making a significant dent App Store fees.

InfamousRece 4y ago

Cancellation is not always easy. Any “recurring” charge will helpfully reopen your closed account. I guess it’s better to just use prepaid gift cards for subscriptions.

vineyardmike 4y ago

I think if you can prove that you tried to cancel and the merchant screwed up you should be fine. Hopefully you have a paper trail of them admitting its a “bug in Billings”. Aside: One of the best things about AMEX is their customer support around chargebacks and I agree I hope they stay super friendly to this.

twblalock 4y ago
I switched back to Amex despite them offering worse rewards than my other card because of this. Other card: I returned an item, with proof of delivery via UPS tracking. Never got a refund. Opened a dispute. Weeks later, the dispute was resolved in the merchant's favor despite the merchant providing nothing as evidence except the original receipt. I had to call the help line, deal with several uncomprehending service reps until one of them re-opened the dispute, asking me to resubmit the same documents I submitted the first time! Finally the dispute was resolved in my favor a month later. Amex: I ordered some items from a local store to be delivered and the order was cancelled without my money being refunded. I received an email with a few questions, which I answered. A few weeks later the dispute was resolved in my favor. I still need to carry another card because some merchants don't accept Amex, but I use the Amex for everything I possibly can. I'm giving up some cash back rewards to do so, and I'm also paying an annual fee, but that's a small price to pay for getting better service when something goes wrong.
- kylehotchkiss 4y ago
  Amex Gold is pretty decent for travel rewards (4x for food/groceries) and amex points are ranked pretty well for value by the points guy (https://thepointsguy.com/guide/amex-points-value/ https://thepointsguy.com/guide/amex-points-value/) - certainly structured differently than cash back but free travel with a year or two of normal expenses isn't too bad a deal
  - twblalock 4y ago
    In the past few years the concept of "travel" has become a bit more difficult. I decided I'd rather have the simplicity of cash back instead.
yencabulator 4y ago
So what you're saying is that the vendors will now strive to make it harder to "prove you tried to cancel", just like they're already striving to make it harder to cancel.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  Send an email to legal@company.com or ceo@company.com or any known-good generic email they have with a note saying “route this to legal”if the normal gui or CUstomer Support team doesn’t work. I’ve heard investor relations is always a good address that’s monitored by people that have spare time. You have now officially provided a written notice to company. If it’s a really big charge or something serious, send a certified letter. That means the US government is now testifying to the time and date of them receiving letter. Share that with Visa and see if that changes their opinion on the chargeback. Be polite, not emotional. Don’t threaten a lawyer or use any language you’d see on a TV legal show. If you’re in California feel free to cite their violation of this law [1]. Don’t threaten to sue. Don’t threaten a lawyer. Just mention that you have the right and you can’t use the UI as expected. If it’s bad you can say something like “if this isn’t resolved I may avail myself of other options afforded by $LAW”. Don’t specify what, don’t threaten they’ll regret it. Just let them know you are someone who is serious and non emotional. “Company X, I have tried to cancel this service but I am unable to due to X. After talking with CS they said it was due to $Bug. I talked with $Person at $Date. Let this serve as a formal notice that I will no longer be paying for service and no longer wish to be charged. I will be instructing Visa to reject further charges after $new_future_date. Please Acknowledge Reciept of this notice. Signed Person. Todays Date is X” https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/04/californias-new-online-cancellation-law-benefits-many-disgruntled-subscribers-in-other-places-too/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/04/californias-new-online-can...
  - yencabulator 4y ago
    > After talking with CS they said it was due to $Bug. Customer support will be (/is) trained to never say such a thing, then. Also, you are normalizing the idea that customers can be forced to jump through arbitrary hoops; you've just invented one yourself. I'd much rather have this behavior be illegal (see recent FTC ruling).
mission_failed 4y ago
Meanwhile Amex sided with an Australian airline that cancelled flights due to covid, despite the airline being in the news as in financial strife and going into administration.
loeg 4y ago
How do you prove to Visa's satisfaction that you called to cancel, for example?
- thaeli 4y ago
  Hard copy sent via registered mail? There's probably a service for this.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  Ask them what they want as proof? I think a certified mail to legal of the company (and a reasonable period of time for them to correct) is probably a good start. If they actually tell you the bill was a mistake, that should definitely be proof.
dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
I never use Amex because they're the only card that has denied me a chargeback. Basically the hotel runs a nice little scam and Amex enables it. They seem to be very shy about accepting chargebacks to hotels. The scam was that you'd book a cancellable room and the hotel would cancel your booking after they accepted it due to "unavailability of the room" (wtf), then rebook an identical "alternative" room "at the cheapest rate" which happens to be an uncancellable room at $1 less. Why? Because they are impossible to find. No taxi driver can find them. Maybe don't exist. By the time you find this out you can't cancel the room.

rurp 4y ago

I totally agree. Chargebacks are one of the few tools consumers have to fight back against shady companies. I think I've only done one or two chargebacks in my life, but I have threatened them other times when dealing with dishonest companies, which usually leads to them suddenly resolving an "impossible" issue. If Visa ends up crippling this ability there's no chance I'll use their cards again.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
> If Visa ends up crippling this ability there's no chance I'll use their cards again. Curious how this makes other options more competitive. If liberal dispute policies are one of the value props of using a CC, and merchants eat the fees, the value of using a CC declines if dispute resolution is tightened up making it closer to parity of irreversible funds transfers (although there is still the float component not yet solved for in the financial UX of most financial service providers). https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32098635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32098635
newhotelowner 4y ago
It also use by customers to get what they want. Just yesterday, a guest called and asked to return 3rd night stay because it was more than the 2nd night room rate. Guest booked the room online and had a confirmation email with a daily rate, signed a physical registration card that shows daily rate during check in but insisted that we are overcharging him. He thretened us with a chargeback. I returned the money because fighting chargeback is a losing battle for us. They booked 8 rooms as a group, and I basically told him, that they are not welcome here next year and he should explained that to his group why we won't let them stay. Also told him, I am going to call everyone in his group and tell them not to book at our location. --- A couple weeks ago, bank called and wanted to verify the charge. Bank wanted to know if the charge was valid. I told them it was charged through chip reader, and I have a video of the guest using the card. She is like, thats all I need. I m going to deny the chargeback. A lot of guest book room, and when they forget to cancel they use chargeback.
- 4y ago

phpisthebest 4y ago

This is why I use capital ones service to create a new number for every vendor (similar to privacy.com) then I can just turn off that card once I cancel the service

abfan1127 4y ago
which service is this? Do you have a link?
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  It is part of their eno service https://www.capitalone.com/digital/eno/virtual-card-numbers/ https://www.capitalone.com/digital/eno/virtual-card-numbers/
- stubish 4y ago
  Wise (wise.com, formerly Transfer Wise) now let you create virtual credit cards. Accounts with them seem to be available to most of the planet.
heliodor 4y ago
Citi offers virtual numbers too. Mercury does too. And many others.

snoopy_telex 4y ago

Privacy dot com. It's the only thing I use for anything that's not a major player (Amazonish). It's saved me a lot of time and hassle. Cancel the account and the card at the same time.

AareyBaba 4y ago
Are you comfortable with the recent change in Privacy.com ? They are using Patriot Bank out of North Dakota as an intermediary. Previously Privacy.com would directly debit from your checking account. In the new process you are signing up for a credit card with Patriot Bank under the hood. They pass on your checking account info to Patriot Bank and somehow money gets exchanged. I don't fully understand the process and don't trust men-in-the-middle like this. I wasn't satisfied with the information I got from Privacy.com customer service. Has anyone researched this and confirmed there are no shenanigans in the new process. I used to use Privacy for many years but stopped because of this.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  What specifically is your concern about that new process?
  - AareyBaba 4y ago
    Old process: Me -> Privacy.com -> My checking account New process: Me -> Privacy.com -> Patriot Bank credit account -> My checking account. My concern is I am forced to sign up for Patriot Bank credit services. Also Patriot Bank gets my checking account information.
    - snoopy_telex 4y ago
      I actually use a bastion bank account so privacy and patriot never get my real one. I push money to the bastion bank and if they do something funky, my exposure is limited.
- moduspol 4y ago

danlugo92 4y ago

www.privacy.com

jimbob45 4y ago

It cuts both ways. You could make a very strong argument that "friendly fraud" is the single reason that the porn industry is having to turn to crypto. Husbands are frequently caught by their spouses and, while pretending that the charge was fraudulent, commit "friendly fraud" themselves. I, for one, am very happy to see Visa taking steps against this. We've kvetched for years over how how much power payment processors have in the system and now they're finally doing something about it (themselves, to boot!).

notyourday 4y ago

And with this single change Visa just ensured that no one other than Apple and Google has a chance of making a significant dent App Store fees.