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Yeah I was super confused by this. VCs generally don’t have all the money ready to invest. They may have raised a $300 mil fund but they don’t get that money un

Yeah I was super confused by this. VCs generally don’t have all the money ready to invest. They may have raised a $300 mil fund but they don’t get that money until they call it in. If the LP says “no deals for 6 months” that’s how it is.

EGreg 4y ago
What if the LP says no deals for 50 years? These “fund raised X” means nothing if they can’t enforce capital calls
- killjoywashere 4y ago
  That should be actionable as a breach of contract, with a notable exception of sovereign wealth funds, which may or may have immunity: https://www.reedsmith.com/en/perspectives/2013/11/capital-call-facilities-basics-challenges-and-oppo https://www.reedsmith.com/en/perspectives/2013/11/capital-ca...
ericd 4y ago
If the LPs don’t meet the capital calls, they’re in breach of their investor agreement, and the penalties are generally quite harsh, including potentially forfeiting a lot of the value they currently have in the fund.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Exactly. You either have the capital ready to roll or you should not engage in any such commitment.
jacquesm 4y ago
As an LP in a large fund: that's definitely not how it is. As an LP you pre-commit to a certain level, and when the capital call comes you perform or you will be found to be in default when a whole pile of clauses kicks in that you really do not want to have to deal with. You will have to have an extremely good reason (such as being already bankrupt) to be able to avoid a capital call that you have committed to.
- Bubble_Pop_22 4y ago
  There are LPs and LPs. The LPs which the user above refers to are the APGs, the PFZWs type.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Show me a contract where an LP gets to renege penalty free on their obligations to a VC and I'll be happy to believe you. I have been part of 222 VC/PE deals to date (that's not a typo, just a coincidence) and not once has an LP reneged on their obligation to honor a capital call without penalty. That's not saying it doesn't happen, it may well happen, or it may have happened and it was kept so quiet that nobody picked up on it (which is somewhat believable, because it would reflect very badly on the fund). Just to give you one example: a VC enters into a deal, signs a non-binding terms sheet conditional on doing DD, goes through a full DD and then has to back out of the deal because a large LP does not honor their commitment. The fall out from that would be massive. What is far more likely to happen is that a VC can't find a good way to spend the funds committed capital. In that case there might be extensions of the funds run or they might end up simply not calling up the available capital. This I've seen a couple of times. But an LP that refuses a capital call I've yet to see. I've even seen an estate that was held to perform when an LP ended up with the very best reason for non-performance of all.
    - Bubble_Pop_22 4y ago
      I understand all the above, but the general rules kinda supercede it all.The general rules are that when you are the best/biggest thing around the block, rules just don't apply to you. Also in general when government is involved rules don't apply to it. 80% or more of the amount of money that LPs as a whole administer are either Govt. Pension Funds or SWFs. So in the case of big LPs it's one of the rare cases where both the above rules are at play to give them carte blanche.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        LPs in a fund usually - possibly not always - have the same conditions except for the 'anchor' LPs, who are declared up front to the other LPs and who put in a substantially larger chunk of cash and commit before the fund is even officially opened. They are committed to do so and are listed in the rest of the documentation by name. Even the anchor LP agreements that I've seen do not allow those to default on their commitment, though there may be priority assignment in case of returns. Again, show me. Just. One. Contract. I'll be happy to read the whole thing even if it is 200 pages. Oh and just to be clear about this: if smaller LPs were on the hook for the full amount but larger LPs could walk at will how big do you think the chances are that those smaller LPs would still want to be part of such a fund? Because clearly if a large contributor has a reason to back out they may have an even better reason to do the same. Personally I would not invest in a fund where a larger LP can back out at will.
spoonjim 4y ago
No, that's not how it is. If the LP doesn't pay their capital call they go into default and the returns on all the money they've invested so far can be taken away. The only LPs who default on the capital call are individual investors who are flat out broke. They will of course default on their capital call before their mortgage.
- grey-area 4y ago
  What if there are no returns on all the money they have invested so far? This is quite possible in a bubble followed by a downturn.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Then you refer to your contract where on page 1 it states fairly clearly that there are no guarantees of returns and that the management fee is on the amount 'under management', and that a capital call will be inbound. Obviously all of these scenarios tend to be covered by the contracts and if you can't read a contract of that level of complexity then you should not be playing this game.

EGreg 4y ago

What if the LP says no deals for 50 years? These “fund raised X” means nothing if they can’t enforce capital calls

killjoywashere 4y ago
That should be actionable as a breach of contract, with a notable exception of sovereign wealth funds, which may or may have immunity: https://www.reedsmith.com/en/perspectives/2013/11/capital-call-facilities-basics-challenges-and-oppo https://www.reedsmith.com/en/perspectives/2013/11/capital-ca...

ericd 4y ago

If the LPs don’t meet the capital calls, they’re in breach of their investor agreement, and the penalties are generally quite harsh, including potentially forfeiting a lot of the value they currently have in the fund.

jacquesm 4y ago
Exactly. You either have the capital ready to roll or you should not engage in any such commitment.

jacquesm 4y ago

As an LP in a large fund: that's definitely not how it is. As an LP you pre-commit to a certain level, and when the capital call comes you perform or you will be found to be in default when a whole pile of clauses kicks in that you really do not want to have to deal with. You will have to have an extremely good reason (such as being already bankrupt) to be able to avoid a capital call that you have committed to.

Bubble_Pop_22 4y ago
There are LPs and LPs. The LPs which the user above refers to are the APGs, the PFZWs type.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Show me a contract where an LP gets to renege penalty free on their obligations to a VC and I'll be happy to believe you. I have been part of 222 VC/PE deals to date (that's not a typo, just a coincidence) and not once has an LP reneged on their obligation to honor a capital call without penalty. That's not saying it doesn't happen, it may well happen, or it may have happened and it was kept so quiet that nobody picked up on it (which is somewhat believable, because it would reflect very badly on the fund). Just to give you one example: a VC enters into a deal, signs a non-binding terms sheet conditional on doing DD, goes through a full DD and then has to back out of the deal because a large LP does not honor their commitment. The fall out from that would be massive. What is far more likely to happen is that a VC can't find a good way to spend the funds committed capital. In that case there might be extensions of the funds run or they might end up simply not calling up the available capital. This I've seen a couple of times. But an LP that refuses a capital call I've yet to see. I've even seen an estate that was held to perform when an LP ended up with the very best reason for non-performance of all.
  - Bubble_Pop_22 4y ago
    I understand all the above, but the general rules kinda supercede it all.The general rules are that when you are the best/biggest thing around the block, rules just don't apply to you. Also in general when government is involved rules don't apply to it. 80% or more of the amount of money that LPs as a whole administer are either Govt. Pension Funds or SWFs. So in the case of big LPs it's one of the rare cases where both the above rules are at play to give them carte blanche.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      LPs in a fund usually - possibly not always - have the same conditions except for the 'anchor' LPs, who are declared up front to the other LPs and who put in a substantially larger chunk of cash and commit before the fund is even officially opened. They are committed to do so and are listed in the rest of the documentation by name. Even the anchor LP agreements that I've seen do not allow those to default on their commitment, though there may be priority assignment in case of returns. Again, show me. Just. One. Contract. I'll be happy to read the whole thing even if it is 200 pages. Oh and just to be clear about this: if smaller LPs were on the hook for the full amount but larger LPs could walk at will how big do you think the chances are that those smaller LPs would still want to be part of such a fund? Because clearly if a large contributor has a reason to back out they may have an even better reason to do the same. Personally I would not invest in a fund where a larger LP can back out at will.

spoonjim 4y ago

No, that's not how it is. If the LP doesn't pay their capital call they go into default and the returns on all the money they've invested so far can be taken away. The only LPs who default on the capital call are individual investors who are flat out broke. They will of course default on their capital call before their mortgage.

grey-area 4y ago
What if there are no returns on all the money they have invested so far? This is quite possible in a bubble followed by a downturn.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Then you refer to your contract where on page 1 it states fairly clearly that there are no guarantees of returns and that the management fee is on the amount 'under management', and that a capital call will be inbound. Obviously all of these scenarios tend to be covered by the contracts and if you can't read a contract of that level of complexity then you should not be playing this game.