7 ms·

What's the problem with that? If Gitlab is not paying top of the market salaries, then they're just going to miss out on top talent, and clearly they're fine wi

What's the problem with that? If Gitlab is not paying top of the market salaries, then they're just going to miss out on top talent, and clearly they're fine with it. It's a free market after all, you don't have to join Gitlab.

chrisan 4y ago
Absolutely nothing is wrong with it. Just don't call yourself a world leader.
- lucideer 4y ago
  If there's nothing wrong with it, why would it preclude one being a world leader. (not saying GL are, there could be other unrelated things precluding it)
  - rschachte 4y ago
    Because being a world leader in remote work would imply they don’t do that?
    - wowokay 4y ago
      That doesn’t make sense? Just like universal pay doesn’t make sense unless there is a universal cost to everything.
      - rschachte 4y ago
        It makes sense relative to actual world leaders in tech that do not adjust pay based on location.
        codegeek 4y ago
        Why should the definition of "World Leader in Remote" be based on how they pay. Why can't it be based on the fact that they allow fully remote and pay reasonably well for your area. Who decides the definition ?
        rschachte 4y ago
        Well that would be fine and all but there are a zillion tech companies that allow remote work that pay reasonably well. It doesn’t mean they’re a world leader in remote work. I worked at a small company that paid me a lot, gave me free stuff, perks etc. It doesn’t mean they’re a world leader in remote work. It just means they offer those things. The point is — they are not a world leader in remote work. They are a tech company with perks and this is good marketing for them to convince people like you otherwise.
        lucideer 4y ago
        > to convince people like you otherwise Nobody here is "convinced by their marketing" or has even mentioned they believe GLs claim. They're only asking for an explanation of your metric: that location based pay grades preclude leadership in remote working. I have yet to see any reasonable case for why this should be?
        chrisan 4y ago
        > They're only asking for an explanation of your metric: that location based pay grades preclude leadership in remote working. I have yet to see any reasonable case for why this should be? Not sure how I reply to the comment below by lucideer, I guess HN has a limit on children? Anywho, this is for him, not you :) Isn't the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I have yet to see a reasonable case for why they should be called a global leader when they treat their workers differently for the same output. Inequality is never going to be associated with a leader in my mind. Maybe from a c-level suit perspective they seem like leaders because they are getting away with making more money at the expense of the people building the product.
        lucideer 4y ago
        > Isn't the burden of proof on the one making the claim? Yes. It is. > I have yet to see a reasonable case for why they should be called a global leader when they treat their workers differently for the same output. My point was no-one has made that claim (nor any similar positive claim - your rephrasing uses weasel words* to bias the interpretation) The claim being made is as follows: "paying workers geo-adjusted wages precludes a company from being a global leader in remote work". Noone has claimed that geo-adjusted wages do make them a leader, nor that GL even is a leader. Only one commenter has made a claim: that is that geo-adjusted wages preclude leadership. * Aside to explain my comment on weasel words: paying the same wage could be as easily interpreted "treating workers differently" given spending power is actually a product of wage / cost-of-living ratio; the value of money is geographically variable
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- chomp 4y ago
  Who would you consider to be operationally and culturally superior in regards to remote work than Gitlab? Asking sincerely, because Gitlab is one of the first brands I think of when people mention "remote first culture".
  - yani 4y ago
    Automattic
  - kirbypineapple 4y ago
    Kraken has a few thousand employees, has been a remote first company for a decade, and pays the same no matter where you live.
    - andsoitis 4y ago
      Kraken operates in over 60 countries (according to their website). They pay the same amount across all those territories, including benefits etc.? I find that hard to believe.
      - kirbypineapple 4y ago
        For engineering/product etc. that's the case. Doesn't matter if you move from San Francisco to Thailand or some other low cost of living area, your pay remains the same.
        onion2k 4y ago
        Not cutting someone's pay when they move is very different to hiring someone in Thailand on a Bay Area salary.
        b4je7d7wb 4y ago
        Why? If both do the same work in the same location, why would one get more than the other. Either you don't adjust the pay when they move because you are already paying everyone an equal salary. Or you adjust it and pay everyone a local salary. Gitlab does the latter.
- emerongi 4y ago
  It's in your own personal definition of remote work that people should be paid an universal salary. Gitlab might not be a world leader in salaries, but they might very well be a world leader in providing the best remote work environment to their employees.
  - arccy 4y ago
    can it really be "best" if you're treated unequally just because live somewhere different?
    - lolinder 4y ago
      For some people, sure! There are dozens of other metrics that can be used to evaluate a remote work environment, and for a lot of people "my salary matches my coworkers" doesn't matter as long as it's a good wage relative to what they'd be able to get working in an office locally.
    - codegeek 4y ago
      Why would you judge what I want as an employee. If I am happy living in a low cost of living area with the salary I am getting, why is it your problem to worry for me ?
    - lttlrck 4y ago
      You stance seems to be you can't be the best unless you do _everything_ better than everyone else.
detaro 4y ago
From what I've seen the usual points of critique were/are: * "This person does the exact same work, obviously they need to be paid 30% more than you because they could afford to move close to an expensive city before applying" doesn't sound exactly fair * "We'll value your work less financially if you move somewhere cheaper (not the other way around though)" isn't particularly great * The message(s) of "You can work from everywhere, people can move back to rural places and reverse demographic drain from there, you can be close to nature, ..." seem a bit hollow when paired with "oh, and if you actually do any of those great things we'll cut your salary" * At least when it was public, their salary calculator had some hilarious blind spots (one would hope they have a better process when it actually comes down to it) For the other perspective, they've written about why they do it: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/total-rewards/compensation/#paying-local-rates https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/total-rewards/compensation..., https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2019/02/28/why-we-pay-local-rates/ https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2019/02/28/why-we-pay-local-ra...
- b4je7d7wb 4y ago
  They have changed the areas to less specific. Like in Europe not individual countries and cities, but thigs like "nordic". Try paying a Norwegian and a Finn the same multiplier. Imagine spending so much time and effort to justify paying your employees less. It makes financial sense for a public company with no soul, but I feel bad for gitlab employees.
  - detaro 4y ago
    > They have changed the areas to less specific. but with a rental-price index for local-ish area instead of trying to capture that in their regions? or total flat?!
- Tao3300 4y ago
  > At least when it was public Thank you, I was thinking I imagined that that existed. Backpedaling on transparency is the antithesis of leadership. Is there a word for that? Sabotage? Maybe too dramatic, but if we're going to toss around terms like "world leader" maybe it's not.
xtracto 4y ago
Yup, that was my same thought. I live in a "cheaper market" location (Mexico) and at some point looked about working in Gitlab as a Tech Lead / Sr. Dev or something similar, because I liked their service. The problem is that when I saw their compensation tables for Mexico, their offer was going to cut my salary by about 30% of what I was actually earning (I think it was about $70k USD annual at most, I cannot find the calculator now), in another US company with an office in my hometown. Instead, I went to another US company which is also remote, and got a pay bump to $140,000 USD, working from my country. I am not asking to get paid in FAANG Valley salaries ($400k+) but even paying me 50%-60% of what they pay to someoneone in the US makes a win-win situation IMHO.
- whateveracct 4y ago
  I wonder if Gitlab takes current salary into account? Or is the location-based pay scale the only thing they use? It would seem silly - incompetent even - to not even offer someone's current salary just because of their little calculator. Although I recent interviewed for a place (the whole gambit) and their offer didn't even match my salary, let alone total comp. And I was very clear. They blamed their "salary bands."
rad_gruchalski 4y ago
The problem is that they don’t offer „location adjusted pricing”. An engineer in Serbia contributes the same value as an engineer in NY to every buck turned by GitLab.

chrisan 4y ago

Absolutely nothing is wrong with it. Just don't call yourself a world leader.

lucideer 4y ago
If there's nothing wrong with it, why would it preclude one being a world leader. (not saying GL are, there could be other unrelated things precluding it)
- rschachte 4y ago
  Because being a world leader in remote work would imply they don’t do that?
  - wowokay 4y ago
    That doesn’t make sense? Just like universal pay doesn’t make sense unless there is a universal cost to everything.
    - rschachte 4y ago
      It makes sense relative to actual world leaders in tech that do not adjust pay based on location.
      - codegeek 4y ago
        Why should the definition of "World Leader in Remote" be based on how they pay. Why can't it be based on the fact that they allow fully remote and pay reasonably well for your area. Who decides the definition ?
        rschachte 4y ago
        Well that would be fine and all but there are a zillion tech companies that allow remote work that pay reasonably well. It doesn’t mean they’re a world leader in remote work. I worked at a small company that paid me a lot, gave me free stuff, perks etc. It doesn’t mean they’re a world leader in remote work. It just means they offer those things. The point is — they are not a world leader in remote work. They are a tech company with perks and this is good marketing for them to convince people like you otherwise.
        lucideer 4y ago
        > to convince people like you otherwise Nobody here is "convinced by their marketing" or has even mentioned they believe GLs claim. They're only asking for an explanation of your metric: that location based pay grades preclude leadership in remote working. I have yet to see any reasonable case for why this should be?
        chrisan 4y ago
        > They're only asking for an explanation of your metric: that location based pay grades preclude leadership in remote working. I have yet to see any reasonable case for why this should be? Not sure how I reply to the comment below by lucideer, I guess HN has a limit on children? Anywho, this is for him, not you :) Isn't the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I have yet to see a reasonable case for why they should be called a global leader when they treat their workers differently for the same output. Inequality is never going to be associated with a leader in my mind. Maybe from a c-level suit perspective they seem like leaders because they are getting away with making more money at the expense of the people building the product.
        lucideer 4y ago
        > Isn't the burden of proof on the one making the claim? Yes. It is. > I have yet to see a reasonable case for why they should be called a global leader when they treat their workers differently for the same output. My point was no-one has made that claim (nor any similar positive claim - your rephrasing uses weasel words* to bias the interpretation) The claim being made is as follows: "paying workers geo-adjusted wages precludes a company from being a global leader in remote work". Noone has claimed that geo-adjusted wages do make them a leader, nor that GL even is a leader. Only one commenter has made a claim: that is that geo-adjusted wages preclude leadership. * Aside to explain my comment on weasel words: paying the same wage could be as easily interpreted "treating workers differently" given spending power is actually a product of wage / cost-of-living ratio; the value of money is geographically variable
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
chomp 4y ago
Who would you consider to be operationally and culturally superior in regards to remote work than Gitlab? Asking sincerely, because Gitlab is one of the first brands I think of when people mention "remote first culture".
- yani 4y ago
  Automattic
- kirbypineapple 4y ago
  Kraken has a few thousand employees, has been a remote first company for a decade, and pays the same no matter where you live.
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    Kraken operates in over 60 countries (according to their website). They pay the same amount across all those territories, including benefits etc.? I find that hard to believe.
    - kirbypineapple 4y ago
      For engineering/product etc. that's the case. Doesn't matter if you move from San Francisco to Thailand or some other low cost of living area, your pay remains the same.
      - onion2k 4y ago
        Not cutting someone's pay when they move is very different to hiring someone in Thailand on a Bay Area salary.
        b4je7d7wb 4y ago
        Why? If both do the same work in the same location, why would one get more than the other. Either you don't adjust the pay when they move because you are already paying everyone an equal salary. Or you adjust it and pay everyone a local salary. Gitlab does the latter.
emerongi 4y ago
It's in your own personal definition of remote work that people should be paid an universal salary. Gitlab might not be a world leader in salaries, but they might very well be a world leader in providing the best remote work environment to their employees.
- arccy 4y ago
  can it really be "best" if you're treated unequally just because live somewhere different?
  - lolinder 4y ago
    For some people, sure! There are dozens of other metrics that can be used to evaluate a remote work environment, and for a lot of people "my salary matches my coworkers" doesn't matter as long as it's a good wage relative to what they'd be able to get working in an office locally.
  - codegeek 4y ago
    Why would you judge what I want as an employee. If I am happy living in a low cost of living area with the salary I am getting, why is it your problem to worry for me ?
  - lttlrck 4y ago
    You stance seems to be you can't be the best unless you do _everything_ better than everyone else.

detaro 4y ago

From what I've seen the usual points of critique were/are: * "This person does the exact same work, obviously they need to be paid 30% more than you because they could afford to move close to an expensive city before applying" doesn't sound exactly fair * "We'll value your work less financially if you move somewhere cheaper (not the other way around though)" isn't particularly great * The message(s) of "You can work from everywhere, people can move back to rural places and reverse demographic drain from there, you can be close to nature, ..." seem a bit hollow when paired with "oh, and if you actually do any of those great things we'll cut your salary" * At least when it was public, their salary calculator had some hilarious blind spots (one would hope they have a better process when it actually comes down to it) For the other perspective, they've written about why they do it: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/total-rewards/compensation/#paying-local-rates https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/total-rewards/compensation..., https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2019/02/28/why-we-pay-local-rates/ https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2019/02/28/why-we-pay-local-ra...

b4je7d7wb 4y ago
They have changed the areas to less specific. Like in Europe not individual countries and cities, but thigs like "nordic". Try paying a Norwegian and a Finn the same multiplier. Imagine spending so much time and effort to justify paying your employees less. It makes financial sense for a public company with no soul, but I feel bad for gitlab employees.
- detaro 4y ago
  > They have changed the areas to less specific. but with a rental-price index for local-ish area instead of trying to capture that in their regions? or total flat?!
Tao3300 4y ago
> At least when it was public Thank you, I was thinking I imagined that that existed. Backpedaling on transparency is the antithesis of leadership. Is there a word for that? Sabotage? Maybe too dramatic, but if we're going to toss around terms like "world leader" maybe it's not.

xtracto 4y ago

Yup, that was my same thought. I live in a "cheaper market" location (Mexico) and at some point looked about working in Gitlab as a Tech Lead / Sr. Dev or something similar, because I liked their service. The problem is that when I saw their compensation tables for Mexico, their offer was going to cut my salary by about 30% of what I was actually earning (I think it was about $70k USD annual at most, I cannot find the calculator now), in another US company with an office in my hometown. Instead, I went to another US company which is also remote, and got a pay bump to $140,000 USD, working from my country. I am not asking to get paid in FAANG Valley salaries ($400k+) but even paying me 50%-60% of what they pay to someoneone in the US makes a win-win situation IMHO.

whateveracct 4y ago
I wonder if Gitlab takes current salary into account? Or is the location-based pay scale the only thing they use? It would seem silly - incompetent even - to not even offer someone's current salary just because of their little calculator. Although I recent interviewed for a place (the whole gambit) and their offer didn't even match my salary, let alone total comp. And I was very clear. They blamed their "salary bands."

rad_gruchalski 4y ago

The problem is that they don’t offer „location adjusted pricing”. An engineer in Serbia contributes the same value as an engineer in NY to every buck turned by GitLab.