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Planting trees is not a serious solution to gun violence or mass transit safety. The correlation between increased, properly-utilized police presence and a dec

Planting trees is not a serious solution to gun violence or mass transit safety. The correlation between increased, properly-utilized police presence and a decrease in crime is one of the most well-researched, replicable, and best-understood conclusions of social science.

autoexec 4y ago
> Planting trees is not a serious solution to gun violence or mass transit safety. again, lots of research would disagree with you. It absolutely does work. On the other hand, more and more cops doesn't always do the job. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html) I've been on mass transit in a few countries now, and I saw more police presence in the US than anywhere else, but it never made me feel any safer and somehow other countries with better, cleaner, public transit systems don't have the kinds of crime problems the US has. You want enough police around so that they can respond when there is a problem, but not so much that the environment becomes oppressive. I'd rather reduce crime by improving the public transpiration system and surrounding neighborhoods than waste tax payer money on having cops sitting around all day on trains and subway cars.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago
  I sincerely wonder what mechanism makes planting trees reduce crime more effectively than increased policing. If true, that lends credence to Broken Windows Theory, no?
  - krallja 4y ago
    some plausible theories: * policing is broken, investing in communities works better than destroying communities via mass incarceration and the criminalization of existence. * trees provide shade, lowering air temperature. hot people act crazier. * being around nature (even urban nature) improves mental health, and increases peoples’ sense of well-being, making them less likely to do crimes.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    The main problem I have with Broken Windows Theory is that rather than being used to improve the environments (fixing the broken windows) it's often used to justify flooding the streets with police and aggressively harassing people. It identifies the source of the problem (the run down areas of a city), but then ignores it because overaggressive policing is an easier sell than spending that money improving the living environments of "the wrong kinds of people". Making those spaces into more oppressive environments won't tend to do much to solve the crime problem because it was an oppressive environment that caused the problem in the first place. Cleaning up and maintaining the run down areas communicates to everyone that the area and the people living in it have value. People start to expect more from the area and from each other. It also makes those spaces less attractive to people looking to cause trouble and more attractive to businesses and to people from outside of that community. The health and mental well-being of the community improves and so does their economy. Shooting jaywalkers and setting up stop and frisk checkpoints just makes everyone feel like criminals and sure enough that's what you get. Broken Windows Theory isn't wrong, but Broken Windows Policing is a problem because what these areas need aren't just police, but rather urban developers, landscapers, and construction crews. Cities that clean up, improve, and maintain the run down parts of town see crime drop. Cities that simply use run down areas to designate "problem populations" and send in the police harass those communities over every possible minor infraction don't get those kinds of results.
    - deepdriver 4y ago
      Broken windows policing isn't necessarily the same as stop-and-frisk, although they are sometimes related: https://www.npr.org/2016/11/01/500104506/broken-windows-policing-and-the-origins-of-stop-and-frisk-and-how-it-went-wrong https://www.npr.org/2016/11/01/500104506/broken-windows-poli...
      - autoexec 4y ago
        True, stop and frisk is just one of many ways broken windows policing can aggressively target the people, when what's actually needed is to target the environment. Policing has a role in cleaning up run down areas, but it's a small one compared to the infrastructure, urban planning, and landscaping improvements needed to reduce crime. Too much/aggressive policing is just another broken window that needs fixing. It signifies that the area is a bad part of town and sets that area apart from the nicer parts of the city.
- t-3 4y ago
  Counterpoint: Detroit. It's jam-packed with trees and gun violence. Maybe planting trees where they weren't correlates with improvement, but I seriously doubt trees are causal to peace.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    Trees sure aren't enough if they're surrounded by vacant lots and abandoned houses. You can't fix everything with landscaping, but improving areas into nice communities that are more in line with the rest of the city goes a long way.
- pnutjam 4y ago
  Probably has alot to do with how the cops are trained and what cop culture is embraced as well. US police are more often a problem then police in other western countries.

autoexec 4y ago

> Planting trees is not a serious solution to gun violence or mass transit safety. again, lots of research would disagree with you. It absolutely does work. On the other hand, more and more cops doesn't always do the job. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html) I've been on mass transit in a few countries now, and I saw more police presence in the US than anywhere else, but it never made me feel any safer and somehow other countries with better, cleaner, public transit systems don't have the kinds of crime problems the US has. You want enough police around so that they can respond when there is a problem, but not so much that the environment becomes oppressive. I'd rather reduce crime by improving the public transpiration system and surrounding neighborhoods than waste tax payer money on having cops sitting around all day on trains and subway cars.

BitwiseFool 4y ago
I sincerely wonder what mechanism makes planting trees reduce crime more effectively than increased policing. If true, that lends credence to Broken Windows Theory, no?
- krallja 4y ago
  some plausible theories: * policing is broken, investing in communities works better than destroying communities via mass incarceration and the criminalization of existence. * trees provide shade, lowering air temperature. hot people act crazier. * being around nature (even urban nature) improves mental health, and increases peoples’ sense of well-being, making them less likely to do crimes.
- autoexec 4y ago
  The main problem I have with Broken Windows Theory is that rather than being used to improve the environments (fixing the broken windows) it's often used to justify flooding the streets with police and aggressively harassing people. It identifies the source of the problem (the run down areas of a city), but then ignores it because overaggressive policing is an easier sell than spending that money improving the living environments of "the wrong kinds of people". Making those spaces into more oppressive environments won't tend to do much to solve the crime problem because it was an oppressive environment that caused the problem in the first place. Cleaning up and maintaining the run down areas communicates to everyone that the area and the people living in it have value. People start to expect more from the area and from each other. It also makes those spaces less attractive to people looking to cause trouble and more attractive to businesses and to people from outside of that community. The health and mental well-being of the community improves and so does their economy. Shooting jaywalkers and setting up stop and frisk checkpoints just makes everyone feel like criminals and sure enough that's what you get. Broken Windows Theory isn't wrong, but Broken Windows Policing is a problem because what these areas need aren't just police, but rather urban developers, landscapers, and construction crews. Cities that clean up, improve, and maintain the run down parts of town see crime drop. Cities that simply use run down areas to designate "problem populations" and send in the police harass those communities over every possible minor infraction don't get those kinds of results.
  - deepdriver 4y ago
    Broken windows policing isn't necessarily the same as stop-and-frisk, although they are sometimes related: https://www.npr.org/2016/11/01/500104506/broken-windows-policing-and-the-origins-of-stop-and-frisk-and-how-it-went-wrong https://www.npr.org/2016/11/01/500104506/broken-windows-poli...
    - autoexec 4y ago
      True, stop and frisk is just one of many ways broken windows policing can aggressively target the people, when what's actually needed is to target the environment. Policing has a role in cleaning up run down areas, but it's a small one compared to the infrastructure, urban planning, and landscaping improvements needed to reduce crime. Too much/aggressive policing is just another broken window that needs fixing. It signifies that the area is a bad part of town and sets that area apart from the nicer parts of the city.
t-3 4y ago
Counterpoint: Detroit. It's jam-packed with trees and gun violence. Maybe planting trees where they weren't correlates with improvement, but I seriously doubt trees are causal to peace.
- autoexec 4y ago
  Trees sure aren't enough if they're surrounded by vacant lots and abandoned houses. You can't fix everything with landscaping, but improving areas into nice communities that are more in line with the rest of the city goes a long way.
pnutjam 4y ago
Probably has alot to do with how the cops are trained and what cop culture is embraced as well. US police are more often a problem then police in other western countries.