7 ms·

Lack of investment in metro cops, maybe. By every other metric, American mass transit costs more and underperforms compared to European and Asian systems: http

Lack of investment in metro cops, maybe. By every other metric, American mass transit costs more and underperforms compared to European and Asian systems: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-26/the-u-s-gets-less-subway-for-its-money-than-its-peers https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-26/the-u-s-g...

autoexec 4y ago
Just like with healthcare and internet service, America often pays a lot more while getting a lot less. Just because America paid more for its mass transit doesn't mean they were better designed, more pleasant to ride on, or that those system are well maintained. It could also mean things like our public transportation had to cover more ground, that unique challenges in geography increased expenses, that politicians were wasting tax payer money in exchange for kickbacks and favors (no-bid contracts), or companies were simply overcharging Americans for the work. Real, meaningful investment in infrastructure and improvements to the environments people spend their time in can do a hell of a lot more to prevent crime than cops do. There is a lot of research to support this. I don't doubt that if we invested more in making our mass transit systems better and more enjoyable to use crime rates would drop. Here's a start if you want more information on the impacts of our environments on crime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKWLY1lZrs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKWLY1lZrs https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/cut-philly-shootings-93-percent/ https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/cut-philly-shootings-93-p... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUAuuJ-hGPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUAuuJ-hGPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zktWPAZ6Es https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zktWPAZ6Es https://www.manhattan-institute.org/cleaning-up-vacant-lots-can-curb-urban-crime https://www.manhattan-institute.org/cleaning-up-vacant-lots-...
- deepdriver 4y ago
  Planting trees is not a serious solution to gun violence or mass transit safety. The correlation between increased, properly-utilized police presence and a decrease in crime is one of the most well-researched, replicable, and best-understood conclusions of social science.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    > Planting trees is not a serious solution to gun violence or mass transit safety. again, lots of research would disagree with you. It absolutely does work. On the other hand, more and more cops doesn't always do the job. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html) I've been on mass transit in a few countries now, and I saw more police presence in the US than anywhere else, but it never made me feel any safer and somehow other countries with better, cleaner, public transit systems don't have the kinds of crime problems the US has. You want enough police around so that they can respond when there is a problem, but not so much that the environment becomes oppressive. I'd rather reduce crime by improving the public transpiration system and surrounding neighborhoods than waste tax payer money on having cops sitting around all day on trains and subway cars.
    - BitwiseFool 4y ago
      I sincerely wonder what mechanism makes planting trees reduce crime more effectively than increased policing. If true, that lends credence to Broken Windows Theory, no?
      - krallja 4y ago
        some plausible theories: * policing is broken, investing in communities works better than destroying communities via mass incarceration and the criminalization of existence. * trees provide shade, lowering air temperature. hot people act crazier. * being around nature (even urban nature) improves mental health, and increases peoples’ sense of well-being, making them less likely to do crimes.
      - autoexec 4y ago
        The main problem I have with Broken Windows Theory is that rather than being used to improve the environments (fixing the broken windows) it's often used to justify flooding the streets with police and aggressively harassing people. It identifies the source of the problem (the run down areas of a city), but then ignores it because overaggressive policing is an easier sell than spending that money improving the living environments of "the wrong kinds of people". Making those spaces into more oppressive environments won't tend to do much to solve the crime problem because it was an oppressive environment that caused the problem in the first place. Cleaning up and maintaining the run down areas communicates to everyone that the area and the people living in it have value. People start to expect more from the area and from each other. It also makes those spaces less attractive to people looking to cause trouble and more attractive to businesses and to people from outside of that community. The health and mental well-being of the community improves and so does their economy. Shooting jaywalkers and setting up stop and frisk checkpoints just makes everyone feel like criminals and sure enough that's what you get. Broken Windows Theory isn't wrong, but Broken Windows Policing is a problem because what these areas need aren't just police, but rather urban developers, landscapers, and construction crews. Cities that clean up, improve, and maintain the run down parts of town see crime drop. Cities that simply use run down areas to designate "problem populations" and send in the police harass those communities over every possible minor infraction don't get those kinds of results.
stuaxo 4y ago
I hardly ever see police on trains in the UK. Sometimes at stations, sure - but hardly eve on trains and it's generally alright (other problems notwithstanding - such as how expensive it is).

autoexec 4y ago

Just like with healthcare and internet service, America often pays a lot more while getting a lot less. Just because America paid more for its mass transit doesn't mean they were better designed, more pleasant to ride on, or that those system are well maintained. It could also mean things like our public transportation had to cover more ground, that unique challenges in geography increased expenses, that politicians were wasting tax payer money in exchange for kickbacks and favors (no-bid contracts), or companies were simply overcharging Americans for the work. Real, meaningful investment in infrastructure and improvements to the environments people spend their time in can do a hell of a lot more to prevent crime than cops do. There is a lot of research to support this. I don't doubt that if we invested more in making our mass transit systems better and more enjoyable to use crime rates would drop. Here's a start if you want more information on the impacts of our environments on crime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKWLY1lZrs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKWLY1lZrs https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/cut-philly-shootings-93-percent/ https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/cut-philly-shootings-93-p... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUAuuJ-hGPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUAuuJ-hGPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zktWPAZ6Es https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zktWPAZ6Es https://www.manhattan-institute.org/cleaning-up-vacant-lots-can-curb-urban-crime https://www.manhattan-institute.org/cleaning-up-vacant-lots-...

deepdriver 4y ago
Planting trees is not a serious solution to gun violence or mass transit safety. The correlation between increased, properly-utilized police presence and a decrease in crime is one of the most well-researched, replicable, and best-understood conclusions of social science.
- autoexec 4y ago
  > Planting trees is not a serious solution to gun violence or mass transit safety. again, lots of research would disagree with you. It absolutely does work. On the other hand, more and more cops doesn't always do the job. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html) I've been on mass transit in a few countries now, and I saw more police presence in the US than anywhere else, but it never made me feel any safer and somehow other countries with better, cleaner, public transit systems don't have the kinds of crime problems the US has. You want enough police around so that they can respond when there is a problem, but not so much that the environment becomes oppressive. I'd rather reduce crime by improving the public transpiration system and surrounding neighborhoods than waste tax payer money on having cops sitting around all day on trains and subway cars.
  - BitwiseFool 4y ago
    I sincerely wonder what mechanism makes planting trees reduce crime more effectively than increased policing. If true, that lends credence to Broken Windows Theory, no?
    - krallja 4y ago
      some plausible theories: * policing is broken, investing in communities works better than destroying communities via mass incarceration and the criminalization of existence. * trees provide shade, lowering air temperature. hot people act crazier. * being around nature (even urban nature) improves mental health, and increases peoples’ sense of well-being, making them less likely to do crimes.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      The main problem I have with Broken Windows Theory is that rather than being used to improve the environments (fixing the broken windows) it's often used to justify flooding the streets with police and aggressively harassing people. It identifies the source of the problem (the run down areas of a city), but then ignores it because overaggressive policing is an easier sell than spending that money improving the living environments of "the wrong kinds of people". Making those spaces into more oppressive environments won't tend to do much to solve the crime problem because it was an oppressive environment that caused the problem in the first place. Cleaning up and maintaining the run down areas communicates to everyone that the area and the people living in it have value. People start to expect more from the area and from each other. It also makes those spaces less attractive to people looking to cause trouble and more attractive to businesses and to people from outside of that community. The health and mental well-being of the community improves and so does their economy. Shooting jaywalkers and setting up stop and frisk checkpoints just makes everyone feel like criminals and sure enough that's what you get. Broken Windows Theory isn't wrong, but Broken Windows Policing is a problem because what these areas need aren't just police, but rather urban developers, landscapers, and construction crews. Cities that clean up, improve, and maintain the run down parts of town see crime drop. Cities that simply use run down areas to designate "problem populations" and send in the police harass those communities over every possible minor infraction don't get those kinds of results.

stuaxo 4y ago

I hardly ever see police on trains in the UK. Sometimes at stations, sure - but hardly eve on trains and it's generally alright (other problems notwithstanding - such as how expensive it is).