6 ms·

This view obscures real problems with safety and hygine on buses and trains. It isn't racist or classist to hate meth smoke blown in your face, or teens setting

This view obscures real problems with safety and hygine on buses and trains. It isn't racist or classist to hate meth smoke blown in your face, or teens setting off fireworks and assaulting passengers on the subway: https://web.archive.org/web/20220214165552/https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/drugs-on-buses-have-become-an-everyday-hazard-seattle-area-transit-workers-say/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220214165552/https://www.seatt... https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/metro-transit-police-investigating-juveniles-allegedly-set-fireworks-train-dc/65-8cd9d818-54a3-47a3-859f-ad16077558c2 https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/metro-transit-po... These days, a much bigger problem for public transit than racism/classism is a general lack of public safety on buses on trains, for all passengers no matter their race or class. Most actual public transit passengers know this. For example, the jury that acquitted Bernie Goetz included two black people; half the jurors had been victims of crime on the subway themselves. A black woman who witnessed the shooting said the teenagers "got what they deserved:" https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/06/17/jury-exonerates-goetz-in-4-subway-shootings/53973777-a617-4ed5-88ed-e841e0643746/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/06/17/j...

jonny_eh 4y ago
> It isn't racist or classist to hate meth smoke blown in your face Cases of crime on public transit are a symptom of the lack of investment in them.
- deepdriver 4y ago
  Lack of investment in metro cops, maybe. By every other metric, American mass transit costs more and underperforms compared to European and Asian systems: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-26/the-u-s-gets-less-subway-for-its-money-than-its-peers https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-26/the-u-s-g...
  - autoexec 4y ago
    Just like with healthcare and internet service, America often pays a lot more while getting a lot less. Just because America paid more for its mass transit doesn't mean they were better designed, more pleasant to ride on, or that those system are well maintained. It could also mean things like our public transportation had to cover more ground, that unique challenges in geography increased expenses, that politicians were wasting tax payer money in exchange for kickbacks and favors (no-bid contracts), or companies were simply overcharging Americans for the work. Real, meaningful investment in infrastructure and improvements to the environments people spend their time in can do a hell of a lot more to prevent crime than cops do. There is a lot of research to support this. I don't doubt that if we invested more in making our mass transit systems better and more enjoyable to use crime rates would drop. Here's a start if you want more information on the impacts of our environments on crime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKWLY1lZrs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKWLY1lZrs https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/cut-philly-shootings-93-percent/ https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/cut-philly-shootings-93-p... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUAuuJ-hGPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUAuuJ-hGPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zktWPAZ6Es https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zktWPAZ6Es https://www.manhattan-institute.org/cleaning-up-vacant-lots-can-curb-urban-crime https://www.manhattan-institute.org/cleaning-up-vacant-lots-...
    - deepdriver 4y ago
      Planting trees is not a serious solution to gun violence or mass transit safety. The correlation between increased, properly-utilized police presence and a decrease in crime is one of the most well-researched, replicable, and best-understood conclusions of social science.
      - autoexec 4y ago
        > Planting trees is not a serious solution to gun violence or mass transit safety. again, lots of research would disagree with you. It absolutely does work. On the other hand, more and more cops doesn't always do the job. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html) I've been on mass transit in a few countries now, and I saw more police presence in the US than anywhere else, but it never made me feel any safer and somehow other countries with better, cleaner, public transit systems don't have the kinds of crime problems the US has. You want enough police around so that they can respond when there is a problem, but not so much that the environment becomes oppressive. I'd rather reduce crime by improving the public transpiration system and surrounding neighborhoods than waste tax payer money on having cops sitting around all day on trains and subway cars.
  - stuaxo 4y ago
    I hardly ever see police on trains in the UK. Sometimes at stations, sure - but hardly eve on trains and it's generally alright (other problems notwithstanding - such as how expensive it is).
- philwelch 4y ago
  No, they're a symptom of lack of investment in curbing crime and other antisocial behavior.
namesbc 4y ago
I ride public transit everyday. You are way safer on BART than you are in a car on the freeway. Your fear mongering is just not based in reality.
- achenatx 4y ago
  kids are much safer in school than they are in a car or at home, yet parents are incredibly fearful of school shootings. What makes people afraid is driven by the media, not by statistics.
- deepdriver 4y ago
  My public transit experience is mostly DC and New York. The few times I've ridden BART, cleanliness was nonexistent (fabric seats were not the best design choice!) and safety was at best questionable. Some examples from the news: https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/asian-woman-attacked-on-bart-in-san-francisco/ https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/asian-woman-attacked-on-... https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/drug-users-san-francisco-civic-center-bart/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/drug-users-san-fra... https://abc7news.com/bart-robberies-teens-rob-oakland-train-crime-security-cameras/1911708/ https://abc7news.com/bart-robberies-teens-rob-oakland-train-... The chance of an incident on any given day is low, but palpable. When it happens to somenone else, it happens right in your face with no physical separation. Maybe that's why many choose to drive instead, despite the higher actual risk of accident per mile. That in itself is a tragedy, but people want the perception of safety just as much as safety by-the-numbers. Hygiene and comfort matter too.
  - 7speter 4y ago
    >cleanliness was nonexistent (fabric seats were not the best design choice!) I'm a New Yorker and before you say you think I want to do away with cars, I think the ideal is a combination of mass transit and private vehicle ownership if you need it. That being said, my mind is always amazed at how clean and well maintained the DC Metro seems to remain. The cars have cloth seats! But the trains are always clean! New Yorkers were so surprised in 2020 when city subway stations got regular bleachdowns. It humors me to no end.
gumby 4y ago
I remember the NYC subways in the 1980s (which wasn’t as bad as the 1970s). BART, today’s NYC subways etc are clean and safe by comparison. I love them, where they work. Melbourne still has a thriving and beloved streetcar system.
Sharlin 4y ago
"Meth smoke blown in your face, or teens setting off fireworks and assaulting passengers on the subway" is somehow not a problem in parts of the world where public transit is not seen as something for the poor people only.
ryan_lane 4y ago
I rode the bus every day for 10 years in SF, and I've had less than one bad experience per year. Yes, you may see a drug user on a bus (I once had someone smoke meth next to me, for the length of one stop), but assault isn't very common. Likely the most common issue is theft, when you aren't paying attention to your belongings. The issue is very much racist/classist, because problems and complaints like this are much less common in places where everyone uses public transportation. The public transportation is better funded, more frequent, and better maintained (and cleaned). Rather than being filled with people who are forced to use public transport, it's filled with everyone, and that helps with the general culture/vibe of the transport too. Live somewhere where public transport is the norm, rather than exception, and get back to us.
ksm1717 4y ago

jonny_eh 4y ago

> It isn't racist or classist to hate meth smoke blown in your face Cases of crime on public transit are a symptom of the lack of investment in them.

deepdriver 4y ago
Lack of investment in metro cops, maybe. By every other metric, American mass transit costs more and underperforms compared to European and Asian systems: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-26/the-u-s-gets-less-subway-for-its-money-than-its-peers https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-26/the-u-s-g...
- autoexec 4y ago
  Just like with healthcare and internet service, America often pays a lot more while getting a lot less. Just because America paid more for its mass transit doesn't mean they were better designed, more pleasant to ride on, or that those system are well maintained. It could also mean things like our public transportation had to cover more ground, that unique challenges in geography increased expenses, that politicians were wasting tax payer money in exchange for kickbacks and favors (no-bid contracts), or companies were simply overcharging Americans for the work. Real, meaningful investment in infrastructure and improvements to the environments people spend their time in can do a hell of a lot more to prevent crime than cops do. There is a lot of research to support this. I don't doubt that if we invested more in making our mass transit systems better and more enjoyable to use crime rates would drop. Here's a start if you want more information on the impacts of our environments on crime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKWLY1lZrs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKWLY1lZrs https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/cut-philly-shootings-93-percent/ https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/cut-philly-shootings-93-p... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUAuuJ-hGPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUAuuJ-hGPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zktWPAZ6Es https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zktWPAZ6Es https://www.manhattan-institute.org/cleaning-up-vacant-lots-can-curb-urban-crime https://www.manhattan-institute.org/cleaning-up-vacant-lots-...
  - deepdriver 4y ago
    Planting trees is not a serious solution to gun violence or mass transit safety. The correlation between increased, properly-utilized police presence and a decrease in crime is one of the most well-researched, replicable, and best-understood conclusions of social science.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      > Planting trees is not a serious solution to gun violence or mass transit safety. again, lots of research would disagree with you. It absolutely does work. On the other hand, more and more cops doesn't always do the job. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/us/police-crime.html) I've been on mass transit in a few countries now, and I saw more police presence in the US than anywhere else, but it never made me feel any safer and somehow other countries with better, cleaner, public transit systems don't have the kinds of crime problems the US has. You want enough police around so that they can respond when there is a problem, but not so much that the environment becomes oppressive. I'd rather reduce crime by improving the public transpiration system and surrounding neighborhoods than waste tax payer money on having cops sitting around all day on trains and subway cars.
- stuaxo 4y ago
  I hardly ever see police on trains in the UK. Sometimes at stations, sure - but hardly eve on trains and it's generally alright (other problems notwithstanding - such as how expensive it is).
philwelch 4y ago
No, they're a symptom of lack of investment in curbing crime and other antisocial behavior.

namesbc 4y ago

I ride public transit everyday. You are way safer on BART than you are in a car on the freeway. Your fear mongering is just not based in reality.

achenatx 4y ago
kids are much safer in school than they are in a car or at home, yet parents are incredibly fearful of school shootings. What makes people afraid is driven by the media, not by statistics.
deepdriver 4y ago
My public transit experience is mostly DC and New York. The few times I've ridden BART, cleanliness was nonexistent (fabric seats were not the best design choice!) and safety was at best questionable. Some examples from the news: https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/asian-woman-attacked-on-bart-in-san-francisco/ https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/asian-woman-attacked-on-... https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/drug-users-san-francisco-civic-center-bart/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/drug-users-san-fra... https://abc7news.com/bart-robberies-teens-rob-oakland-train-crime-security-cameras/1911708/ https://abc7news.com/bart-robberies-teens-rob-oakland-train-... The chance of an incident on any given day is low, but palpable. When it happens to somenone else, it happens right in your face with no physical separation. Maybe that's why many choose to drive instead, despite the higher actual risk of accident per mile. That in itself is a tragedy, but people want the perception of safety just as much as safety by-the-numbers. Hygiene and comfort matter too.
- 7speter 4y ago
  >cleanliness was nonexistent (fabric seats were not the best design choice!) I'm a New Yorker and before you say you think I want to do away with cars, I think the ideal is a combination of mass transit and private vehicle ownership if you need it. That being said, my mind is always amazed at how clean and well maintained the DC Metro seems to remain. The cars have cloth seats! But the trains are always clean! New Yorkers were so surprised in 2020 when city subway stations got regular bleachdowns. It humors me to no end.

gumby 4y ago

I remember the NYC subways in the 1980s (which wasn’t as bad as the 1970s). BART, today’s NYC subways etc are clean and safe by comparison. I love them, where they work. Melbourne still has a thriving and beloved streetcar system.

Sharlin 4y ago

"Meth smoke blown in your face, or teens setting off fireworks and assaulting passengers on the subway" is somehow not a problem in parts of the world where public transit is not seen as something for the poor people only.

ryan_lane 4y ago

I rode the bus every day for 10 years in SF, and I've had less than one bad experience per year. Yes, you may see a drug user on a bus (I once had someone smoke meth next to me, for the length of one stop), but assault isn't very common. Likely the most common issue is theft, when you aren't paying attention to your belongings. The issue is very much racist/classist, because problems and complaints like this are much less common in places where everyone uses public transportation. The public transportation is better funded, more frequent, and better maintained (and cleaned). Rather than being filled with people who are forced to use public transport, it's filled with everyone, and that helps with the general culture/vibe of the transport too. Live somewhere where public transport is the norm, rather than exception, and get back to us.

ksm1717 4y ago