4 ms·

My father frequently told me the story of mass transit in Detroit. He was a fan of the interurbans which were street cars that travelled between cities, some o

by rmason 4y ago

My father frequently told me the story of mass transit in Detroit. He was a fan of the interurbans which were street cars that travelled between cities, some of them fifty miles from Detroit. Cars and later freeways totally killed off the interurbans. In fact freeways killed off passenger trains as well. But streetcars still thrived in Detroit. You could get anywhere with them and even in the car capital of the world people went without them. But then in a flash they were gone. My father was a life long believer in the so called conspiracy. He was regarded as a conspiracy theorist. As a kid I wished he'd just stop talking about it. But then as a young adult the proof started coming out that maybe he was right all along. But now with a big media push it's going the other way. I know one thing in Michigan the politicians go along with whatever GM wants, always. Michigan has some of the worst roads in America while at the same time having the largest gas taxes. Yet when billions of dollars became available as a result of COVID what did the governor do who ran on the slogan, 'fix the damn roads'? She gave the money to GM for battery plants! This Wikipedia page just looks like more spin to me.

hnuser123456 4y ago
Michigander here, can confirm the roads are more pothole than road in some places. The rich neighborhoods get re-paved every 10 years. The poor ones every 20. Some places they'll just fill them in with something that breaks up in under a year. Some places, why even bother with that? Citycars that assume relatively flat roads in downtown centers are misguided here. The state highways are smoother than midtown hubs.
- supertrope 4y ago
  Colder states have more potholes. Each freeze thaw cycle and plow run degrades the asphalt. It's not just DOT management and funding.
7speter 4y ago
>Yet when billions of dollars became available as a result of COVID what did the governor do who ran on the slogan, 'fix the damn roads'? She gave the money to GM for battery plants! I understand the discontent, but the logic seems to follow. Assuming you have Michiganders working in the battery plants, they get paid producing batteries, and then taxed by the state. The taxes pay for the roads, and workers can buy homes and other things while remaining in Michigan (flight seems to be a bit of a crisis in Detroit, last I read). And the cycle, ideally, repeats year after year.
- rmason 4y ago
  Except the government math is kind of hazy. Google promised 1000 jobs in Ann Arbor and the deal helped get then Gov. Jennifer Granholm reelected, that's why politicians of both parties do it. But Google only ever created 500 jobs. Yet rarely if ever do any of these companies have to pay back part of the money if the jobs never get created.
  - djbusby 4y ago
    See FoxConn, just next door https://www.wpr.org/failed-partnerships-and-vacant-buildings-foxconns-wisconsin-commitment-remains-standstill https://www.wpr.org/failed-partnerships-and-vacant-buildings...
- johnday 4y ago
  If we give these tax dollars to General Motors, they could turn into anything! Even tax dollars!
actually_a_dog 4y ago
It's interesting that you refer to the interurbans as "streetcars." It has me wondering: at what point do you stop thinking of something as a streetcar and start thinking of it as light rail?
- Sharlin 4y ago
  "Light rail" is something of a technical term and a neologism (well, coined in the 70s but still). It was coined specifically to refer to rail systems that are lighter and demand less infrastructure than heavy rail but higher speed, higher capacity, farther reach than traditional trams or streetcars. But I don't think the term has gained very wide use in common vernacular.
  - mc32 4y ago
    One more thing about lightrail, in the US they tend to share right of way alongside freeways (median) for long stretches and can veer off on to local streets when it gets to a dense area. Steetcars I tend to picture as going on local roads as in the "trolley dodgers" kind of way.
jimkleiber 4y ago
I dunno, I'm starting to see the world as more and more complex (aka many inputs contribute to many outputs) and yet maybe too complex for us as humans so we latch onto one input causing one output. I see lots of side road construction in the northern Detroit suburbs, the interstates have been under major construction for at least 2-3 years, and overall, it seems as if there's lots of construction. Is it from Whitmer? From the feds? From local cities? I don't know, probably a combination of all three and more. Same with why the street cars disappeared. I think our anger/fear can make us think it was one and only one group or person who made such things happen, I just think that's probably a subjective perspective more than an objective reality. Edit: also I hadn't heard of Whitmer giving money to GM, could you share a link about that? All I can find is that she helped GM make their own $7B investment in Michigan.
- uluyol 4y ago
  I've lived in MI for the past 7 years, and MN before that (I still have family there). Construction in MI seems to have ramped up quite a bit lately, but is still not comparable to the amount of rebuilding that goes on in MN. There's definitely progress, but there's still a long way before I would consider the situation good.
  - jimkleiber 4y ago
    Oh yes, I don't think the roads are in the condition in which I'd like them to be, I also wonder why the roads in Michigan seem so bad and maybe it really is just the lack of construction. Just read an article by Crain's Detroit from earlier this year[0] talking about how it may mostly just be underfunding of road repair, as: > Michigan's current system at the state level relies solely on fuel consumption and the value of vehicles to generate revenue for roads. I wonder how Minnesota fares in terms of budget for roads. Also just read this on r/civilengineering[1]: > Civil Engineer/Construction PM in Michigan. It’s a combination of three things. > 1. Money, for both construction and routine maintenance. Our government is trying to fix this but it’s all political > 2. Climate. Roads in southern states will naturally be nicer because less freeze/thaw & de-icing chemicals on the roads > 3. Weight limits. Because of the auto industry, Michigan has one of the heaviest loads allowed on our freeways. People will say it’s spread across more axles to counter this but I personally have my doubts. And finally, one more list[2]. [0]: https://www.crainsdetroit.com/crains-forum/why-are-michigans-roads-so-bad https://www.crainsdetroit.com/crains-forum/why-are-michigans... [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/civilengineering/comments/vtjnxz/comment/if7whdn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/civilengineering/comments/vtjnxz/co... [2]: https://www.moneybeagle.com/michigan-roads-bad-10-things-know/ https://www.moneybeagle.com/michigan-roads-bad-10-things-kno...
somewhat_drunk 4y ago
>She gave the money to GM for battery plants! Link? And as far as I can tell, a LOT of money has been poured into Michigan's roads in the last few years. Most of the issues that existed when I moved here four years ago have been fixed. Sure there are still some bad areas, but the damn roads do seem to be getting fixed.

by rmason 4y ago

hnuser123456 4y ago

Michigander here, can confirm the roads are more pothole than road in some places. The rich neighborhoods get re-paved every 10 years. The poor ones every 20. Some places they'll just fill them in with something that breaks up in under a year. Some places, why even bother with that? Citycars that assume relatively flat roads in downtown centers are misguided here. The state highways are smoother than midtown hubs.

supertrope 4y ago
Colder states have more potholes. Each freeze thaw cycle and plow run degrades the asphalt. It's not just DOT management and funding.

7speter 4y ago

>Yet when billions of dollars became available as a result of COVID what did the governor do who ran on the slogan, 'fix the damn roads'? She gave the money to GM for battery plants! I understand the discontent, but the logic seems to follow. Assuming you have Michiganders working in the battery plants, they get paid producing batteries, and then taxed by the state. The taxes pay for the roads, and workers can buy homes and other things while remaining in Michigan (flight seems to be a bit of a crisis in Detroit, last I read). And the cycle, ideally, repeats year after year.

rmason 4y ago
Except the government math is kind of hazy. Google promised 1000 jobs in Ann Arbor and the deal helped get then Gov. Jennifer Granholm reelected, that's why politicians of both parties do it. But Google only ever created 500 jobs. Yet rarely if ever do any of these companies have to pay back part of the money if the jobs never get created.
- djbusby 4y ago
  See FoxConn, just next door https://www.wpr.org/failed-partnerships-and-vacant-buildings-foxconns-wisconsin-commitment-remains-standstill https://www.wpr.org/failed-partnerships-and-vacant-buildings...
johnday 4y ago
If we give these tax dollars to General Motors, they could turn into anything! Even tax dollars!

actually_a_dog 4y ago

It's interesting that you refer to the interurbans as "streetcars." It has me wondering: at what point do you stop thinking of something as a streetcar and start thinking of it as light rail?

Sharlin 4y ago
"Light rail" is something of a technical term and a neologism (well, coined in the 70s but still). It was coined specifically to refer to rail systems that are lighter and demand less infrastructure than heavy rail but higher speed, higher capacity, farther reach than traditional trams or streetcars. But I don't think the term has gained very wide use in common vernacular.
- mc32 4y ago
  One more thing about lightrail, in the US they tend to share right of way alongside freeways (median) for long stretches and can veer off on to local streets when it gets to a dense area. Steetcars I tend to picture as going on local roads as in the "trolley dodgers" kind of way.

jimkleiber 4y ago

I dunno, I'm starting to see the world as more and more complex (aka many inputs contribute to many outputs) and yet maybe too complex for us as humans so we latch onto one input causing one output. I see lots of side road construction in the northern Detroit suburbs, the interstates have been under major construction for at least 2-3 years, and overall, it seems as if there's lots of construction. Is it from Whitmer? From the feds? From local cities? I don't know, probably a combination of all three and more. Same with why the street cars disappeared. I think our anger/fear can make us think it was one and only one group or person who made such things happen, I just think that's probably a subjective perspective more than an objective reality. Edit: also I hadn't heard of Whitmer giving money to GM, could you share a link about that? All I can find is that she helped GM make their own $7B investment in Michigan.

uluyol 4y ago
I've lived in MI for the past 7 years, and MN before that (I still have family there). Construction in MI seems to have ramped up quite a bit lately, but is still not comparable to the amount of rebuilding that goes on in MN. There's definitely progress, but there's still a long way before I would consider the situation good.
- jimkleiber 4y ago
  Oh yes, I don't think the roads are in the condition in which I'd like them to be, I also wonder why the roads in Michigan seem so bad and maybe it really is just the lack of construction. Just read an article by Crain's Detroit from earlier this year[0] talking about how it may mostly just be underfunding of road repair, as: > Michigan's current system at the state level relies solely on fuel consumption and the value of vehicles to generate revenue for roads. I wonder how Minnesota fares in terms of budget for roads. Also just read this on r/civilengineering[1]: > Civil Engineer/Construction PM in Michigan. It’s a combination of three things. > 1. Money, for both construction and routine maintenance. Our government is trying to fix this but it’s all political > 2. Climate. Roads in southern states will naturally be nicer because less freeze/thaw & de-icing chemicals on the roads > 3. Weight limits. Because of the auto industry, Michigan has one of the heaviest loads allowed on our freeways. People will say it’s spread across more axles to counter this but I personally have my doubts. And finally, one more list[2]. [0]: https://www.crainsdetroit.com/crains-forum/why-are-michigans-roads-so-bad https://www.crainsdetroit.com/crains-forum/why-are-michigans... [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/civilengineering/comments/vtjnxz/comment/if7whdn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/civilengineering/comments/vtjnxz/co... [2]: https://www.moneybeagle.com/michigan-roads-bad-10-things-know/ https://www.moneybeagle.com/michigan-roads-bad-10-things-kno...

somewhat_drunk 4y ago

>She gave the money to GM for battery plants! Link? And as far as I can tell, a LOT of money has been poured into Michigan's roads in the last few years. Most of the issues that existed when I moved here four years ago have been fixed. Sure there are still some bad areas, but the damn roads do seem to be getting fixed.