11 ms·

> They forced all manner of people into close quarters with one another. I'm convinced this is the root of all animus towards public transport in the USA. Raci

> They forced all manner of people into close quarters with one another. I'm convinced this is the root of all animus towards public transport in the USA. Racism plays a huge part, but it's not exclusively racist, it's also classist - my parents for example would never want to be seen on a bus in their midwestern home town.

rch 4y ago
Where I live the classism is reversed, in that arriving by bus means you can afford to live by public transit. The same goes for showing up to a party with a salad from your backyard garden or fresh baked bread. Having the time and space for these is a luxury now, whereas my mother would prefer to pick something up on the way.
- hammock 4y ago
  > Where I live the classism is reversed, in that arriving by bus means you can afford to live by public transit. Interesting thought, I had to think of what kind of places these are. Maybe urbanized bedroom communities or connected suburbs like Naperville in Illinois? Where do you live?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jeromegv 4y ago
  Perhaps if you have the « choice » for public transit. What we saw in toronto for example during Covid is that ridership dropped in higher income neighborhood (especially the ones that have access to the subway). The highest ridership lines were bus routes in low income neighbourhood, where people still had to go to work as some type of essential workers and did not have a car. Let’s not make a blanket statement that transit is for the rich, the reality is that the rich takes it when it gets good enough but they always have other choices. Some people just don’t have that choice and transit is their only way to go to work, that’s why it’s essential to the economy.
  - throw0101a 4y ago
    So the rich people of Toronto first wanted picket fences and built the inner-suburbs, and drove everywhere, plus forced the elimination of transit payment zones. And now the rich are living more in Old Toronto and the poor(er) folks are forced to the inner-suburbs where the design does not condone efficient transit.
  - rch 4y ago
    I wouldn't say transit is for the wealthy... Only that that transit should be more ubiquitous within population centers and widespread regionally, with high enough frequency to be a workable option for everyone.
deepdriver 4y ago
This view obscures real problems with safety and hygine on buses and trains. It isn't racist or classist to hate meth smoke blown in your face, or teens setting off fireworks and assaulting passengers on the subway: https://web.archive.org/web/20220214165552/https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/drugs-on-buses-have-become-an-everyday-hazard-seattle-area-transit-workers-say/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220214165552/https://www.seatt... https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/metro-transit-police-investigating-juveniles-allegedly-set-fireworks-train-dc/65-8cd9d818-54a3-47a3-859f-ad16077558c2 https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/metro-transit-po... These days, a much bigger problem for public transit than racism/classism is a general lack of public safety on buses on trains, for all passengers no matter their race or class. Most actual public transit passengers know this. For example, the jury that acquitted Bernie Goetz included two black people; half the jurors had been victims of crime on the subway themselves. A black woman who witnessed the shooting said the teenagers "got what they deserved:" https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/06/17/jury-exonerates-goetz-in-4-subway-shootings/53973777-a617-4ed5-88ed-e841e0643746/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/06/17/j...
- jonny_eh 4y ago
  > It isn't racist or classist to hate meth smoke blown in your face Cases of crime on public transit are a symptom of the lack of investment in them.
  - deepdriver 4y ago
    Lack of investment in metro cops, maybe. By every other metric, American mass transit costs more and underperforms compared to European and Asian systems: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-26/the-u-s-gets-less-subway-for-its-money-than-its-peers https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-26/the-u-s-g...
    - autoexec 4y ago
      Just like with healthcare and internet service, America often pays a lot more while getting a lot less. Just because America paid more for its mass transit doesn't mean they were better designed, more pleasant to ride on, or that those system are well maintained. It could also mean things like our public transportation had to cover more ground, that unique challenges in geography increased expenses, that politicians were wasting tax payer money in exchange for kickbacks and favors (no-bid contracts), or companies were simply overcharging Americans for the work. Real, meaningful investment in infrastructure and improvements to the environments people spend their time in can do a hell of a lot more to prevent crime than cops do. There is a lot of research to support this. I don't doubt that if we invested more in making our mass transit systems better and more enjoyable to use crime rates would drop. Here's a start if you want more information on the impacts of our environments on crime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKWLY1lZrs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKWLY1lZrs https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/cut-philly-shootings-93-percent/ https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/cut-philly-shootings-93-p... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUAuuJ-hGPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUAuuJ-hGPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zktWPAZ6Es https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zktWPAZ6Es https://www.manhattan-institute.org/cleaning-up-vacant-lots-can-curb-urban-crime https://www.manhattan-institute.org/cleaning-up-vacant-lots-...
adolph 4y ago
Along with public transportation there was a time when pools closed rather than integrate. https://www.npr.org/2007/05/26/10407533/plunging-into-public-pools-contentious-past https://www.npr.org/2007/05/26/10407533/plunging-into-public...
oldjavacoder 4y ago
It isn't racist or classist bullshit. It was that people liked cars for the independence they provided. Today's live in their parent's basement generation can't comprehend the concept.
- actually_a_dog 4y ago
  It absolutely is. Often, the determining factor as to whether one rides public transportation or not given its availability is whether driving is an option or not. Driving is never an option when one doesn't have a car. Cars cost money, and money (in the US) is pretty directly linked to both race and class.
  - slater 4y ago
    > Driving is never an option when one doesn't have a car Zipcar?
- subpixel 4y ago
  Hogwash, cars have serious appeal that isn't why Robert Moses made overpasses too low for buses to get to the beach.
asiachick 4y ago
And yet all over the world plenty of cities people rich and less rich ride public transit all the time in close quarters with one another. Go ride the public transit in Paris, London, Singapore, Hong Kong, Seoul, Tokyo, just to name a few. Nobody bats an eye. It's just "normal"

rch 4y ago

Where I live the classism is reversed, in that arriving by bus means you can afford to live by public transit. The same goes for showing up to a party with a salad from your backyard garden or fresh baked bread. Having the time and space for these is a luxury now, whereas my mother would prefer to pick something up on the way.

hammock 4y ago
> Where I live the classism is reversed, in that arriving by bus means you can afford to live by public transit. Interesting thought, I had to think of what kind of places these are. Maybe urbanized bedroom communities or connected suburbs like Naperville in Illinois? Where do you live?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jeromegv 4y ago
Perhaps if you have the « choice » for public transit. What we saw in toronto for example during Covid is that ridership dropped in higher income neighborhood (especially the ones that have access to the subway). The highest ridership lines were bus routes in low income neighbourhood, where people still had to go to work as some type of essential workers and did not have a car. Let’s not make a blanket statement that transit is for the rich, the reality is that the rich takes it when it gets good enough but they always have other choices. Some people just don’t have that choice and transit is their only way to go to work, that’s why it’s essential to the economy.
- throw0101a 4y ago
  So the rich people of Toronto first wanted picket fences and built the inner-suburbs, and drove everywhere, plus forced the elimination of transit payment zones. And now the rich are living more in Old Toronto and the poor(er) folks are forced to the inner-suburbs where the design does not condone efficient transit.
- rch 4y ago
  I wouldn't say transit is for the wealthy... Only that that transit should be more ubiquitous within population centers and widespread regionally, with high enough frequency to be a workable option for everyone.

deepdriver 4y ago

This view obscures real problems with safety and hygine on buses and trains. It isn't racist or classist to hate meth smoke blown in your face, or teens setting off fireworks and assaulting passengers on the subway: https://web.archive.org/web/20220214165552/https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/drugs-on-buses-have-become-an-everyday-hazard-seattle-area-transit-workers-say/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220214165552/https://www.seatt... https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/metro-transit-police-investigating-juveniles-allegedly-set-fireworks-train-dc/65-8cd9d818-54a3-47a3-859f-ad16077558c2 https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/metro-transit-po... These days, a much bigger problem for public transit than racism/classism is a general lack of public safety on buses on trains, for all passengers no matter their race or class. Most actual public transit passengers know this. For example, the jury that acquitted Bernie Goetz included two black people; half the jurors had been victims of crime on the subway themselves. A black woman who witnessed the shooting said the teenagers "got what they deserved:" https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/06/17/jury-exonerates-goetz-in-4-subway-shootings/53973777-a617-4ed5-88ed-e841e0643746/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/06/17/j...

jonny_eh 4y ago
> It isn't racist or classist to hate meth smoke blown in your face Cases of crime on public transit are a symptom of the lack of investment in them.
- deepdriver 4y ago
  Lack of investment in metro cops, maybe. By every other metric, American mass transit costs more and underperforms compared to European and Asian systems: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-26/the-u-s-gets-less-subway-for-its-money-than-its-peers https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-26/the-u-s-g...
  - autoexec 4y ago
    Just like with healthcare and internet service, America often pays a lot more while getting a lot less. Just because America paid more for its mass transit doesn't mean they were better designed, more pleasant to ride on, or that those system are well maintained. It could also mean things like our public transportation had to cover more ground, that unique challenges in geography increased expenses, that politicians were wasting tax payer money in exchange for kickbacks and favors (no-bid contracts), or companies were simply overcharging Americans for the work. Real, meaningful investment in infrastructure and improvements to the environments people spend their time in can do a hell of a lot more to prevent crime than cops do. There is a lot of research to support this. I don't doubt that if we invested more in making our mass transit systems better and more enjoyable to use crime rates would drop. Here's a start if you want more information on the impacts of our environments on crime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKWLY1lZrs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKWLY1lZrs https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/cut-philly-shootings-93-percent/ https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/cut-philly-shootings-93-p... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUAuuJ-hGPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUAuuJ-hGPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zktWPAZ6Es https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zktWPAZ6Es https://www.manhattan-institute.org/cleaning-up-vacant-lots-can-curb-urban-crime https://www.manhattan-institute.org/cleaning-up-vacant-lots-...

adolph 4y ago

Along with public transportation there was a time when pools closed rather than integrate. https://www.npr.org/2007/05/26/10407533/plunging-into-public-pools-contentious-past https://www.npr.org/2007/05/26/10407533/plunging-into-public...

oldjavacoder 4y ago

It isn't racist or classist bullshit. It was that people liked cars for the independence they provided. Today's live in their parent's basement generation can't comprehend the concept.

actually_a_dog 4y ago
It absolutely is. Often, the determining factor as to whether one rides public transportation or not given its availability is whether driving is an option or not. Driving is never an option when one doesn't have a car. Cars cost money, and money (in the US) is pretty directly linked to both race and class.
- slater 4y ago
  > Driving is never an option when one doesn't have a car Zipcar?
subpixel 4y ago
Hogwash, cars have serious appeal that isn't why Robert Moses made overpasses too low for buses to get to the beach.

asiachick 4y ago

And yet all over the world plenty of cities people rich and less rich ride public transit all the time in close quarters with one another. Go ride the public transit in Paris, London, Singapore, Hong Kong, Seoul, Tokyo, just to name a few. Nobody bats an eye. It's just "normal"