3 ms·

It's not a "problem," it's an unwanted shard of reality piercing through an ideological guise.

by Jerrrry 4y ago

ketzo 4y ago
serious question: in what way is that not a “problem?”
- bobcostas55 4y ago
  Well, it's a problem for the ideology.
- TheFreim 4y ago
  It's not a problem in a few ways, let me know what you think (feel free to ask for clarification). 1. The training data would've been the best way to get organic results, the input is where it'd be necessary to have representative samples of populations. 2. If the reason the model needs to be manipulated to include more "diversity" is that there wasn't enough "diversity" in the training set then its likely the results will be lower quality 3. People should be free to manipulate the results how they wish, a base model without arbitrary manipulations of "diversity" would be the best starting point to allow users to get the appropriate results 4. A "diverse" group of people depends on a variety of different circumstances, if their method of increasing it is as naive as some of the are claiming this could result in absurdities when generating historical images or images relating to specific locations/cultures where things will be LESS representative
gnulinux 4y ago
How's it NOT a problem? If I'm trying to produce "stock people images", and if it only gives me white men, it's clearly broken because when I ask for "people" I'm actually asking for "people". I'm having difficulty understanding how it can be considered to be working as intended, when it literally doesn't. Clearly, the software has substantial bias that gets in way of it accomplishing its task. If I want to produce "animal images" but it only produces images of black cats, do you think there is any question whether it's a problem or not?
- mysterydip 4y ago
  That's what Jerrrry is saying. Framing the reality of diversity in the world as a "problem" is wrong.
- Jerrrry 4y ago
  That is clearly overfitting due to unrepresentative training data. The "issue" is a different one: that training data - IE, reality, has _unwanted_ biases in it, because reality is biased. Producing images of men when prompting for "trash collecting workers" should not be much of a surprise: 99% of garbage collection/refuse is handled by men. I doubt most will consider this a "problem," because of one's own bias, nobody cares about women being represented for a "shitty" job. But ask for picture of CEOs, and then act surprised when most images are of white men? Only outrage, when proportionally, CEO's are, on average, white men. The "problem" arises when we use these tools to make decisions and further affect society - it has the obvious issue of further entrenching stereotypical associations. This is not that. Asking DALLE for a bunch of football players, would expectedly produce a huddled group of black men. No issue, because the NFL are disproportionately black men. No outrage, either. Asking DALLE for a group of criminals, likewise, produces a group of black men. Outage! Except statistically, this is not a surprise, as a disproportionate amount of criminals are black men. The "problem" is with reality being used as training data. The "problem" is with our reality, not the tooling. Except in the cases where these toolings are being used to affect society - the obvious example being insurance ML algorithms. et al - we should strive to fix the issues present in reality, not hide them with handicapped training data, and malformed inputs.
  - CuriousSkeptic 4y ago
    > Asking DALLE for a bunch of football players, would expectedly produce a huddled group of black men I think, for about 95% of the world football is synonymous with soccer. Its kind of interesting that you take this particular example to represent what reality looks like statistically
  - TomWhitwell 4y ago
    In the UK… “The Environmental Services Association, the trade body, said that only 14 per cent of the country's 91,300 waste sector workers were female.” So 2x dall-e searches should produce 1.2 women.
stuckinhell 4y ago
Everything is an ideological war zone now. That's the world we live in now.
Fnoord 4y ago
Perhaps its a problem you don't care about?

It's not a "problem," it's an unwanted shard of reality piercing through an ideological guise.

ketzo 4y ago

serious question: in what way is that not a “problem?”

bobcostas55 4y ago
Well, it's a problem for the ideology.
TheFreim 4y ago
It's not a problem in a few ways, let me know what you think (feel free to ask for clarification). 1. The training data would've been the best way to get organic results, the input is where it'd be necessary to have representative samples of populations. 2. If the reason the model needs to be manipulated to include more "diversity" is that there wasn't enough "diversity" in the training set then its likely the results will be lower quality 3. People should be free to manipulate the results how they wish, a base model without arbitrary manipulations of "diversity" would be the best starting point to allow users to get the appropriate results 4. A "diverse" group of people depends on a variety of different circumstances, if their method of increasing it is as naive as some of the are claiming this could result in absurdities when generating historical images or images relating to specific locations/cultures where things will be LESS representative

gnulinux 4y ago

How's it NOT a problem? If I'm trying to produce "stock people images", and if it only gives me white men, it's clearly broken because when I ask for "people" I'm actually asking for "people". I'm having difficulty understanding how it can be considered to be working as intended, when it literally doesn't. Clearly, the software has substantial bias that gets in way of it accomplishing its task. If I want to produce "animal images" but it only produces images of black cats, do you think there is any question whether it's a problem or not?

mysterydip 4y ago
That's what Jerrrry is saying. Framing the reality of diversity in the world as a "problem" is wrong.
Jerrrry 4y ago
That is clearly overfitting due to unrepresentative training data. The "issue" is a different one: that training data - IE, reality, has _unwanted_ biases in it, because reality is biased. Producing images of men when prompting for "trash collecting workers" should not be much of a surprise: 99% of garbage collection/refuse is handled by men. I doubt most will consider this a "problem," because of one's own bias, nobody cares about women being represented for a "shitty" job. But ask for picture of CEOs, and then act surprised when most images are of white men? Only outrage, when proportionally, CEO's are, on average, white men. The "problem" arises when we use these tools to make decisions and further affect society - it has the obvious issue of further entrenching stereotypical associations. This is not that. Asking DALLE for a bunch of football players, would expectedly produce a huddled group of black men. No issue, because the NFL are disproportionately black men. No outrage, either. Asking DALLE for a group of criminals, likewise, produces a group of black men. Outage! Except statistically, this is not a surprise, as a disproportionate amount of criminals are black men. The "problem" is with reality being used as training data. The "problem" is with our reality, not the tooling. Except in the cases where these toolings are being used to affect society - the obvious example being insurance ML algorithms. et al - we should strive to fix the issues present in reality, not hide them with handicapped training data, and malformed inputs.
- CuriousSkeptic 4y ago
  > Asking DALLE for a bunch of football players, would expectedly produce a huddled group of black men I think, for about 95% of the world football is synonymous with soccer. Its kind of interesting that you take this particular example to represent what reality looks like statistically
- TomWhitwell 4y ago
  In the UK… “The Environmental Services Association, the trade body, said that only 14 per cent of the country's 91,300 waste sector workers were female.” So 2x dall-e searches should produce 1.2 women.

stuckinhell 4y ago

Everything is an ideological war zone now. That's the world we live in now.

Fnoord 4y ago

Perhaps its a problem you don't care about?