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I don’t think the EU has the ability to break up American companies. I guess they could try to ban them from operating in the EU, but that would pretty much nuk

I don’t think the EU has the ability to break up American companies. I guess they could try to ban them from operating in the EU, but that would pretty much nuke diplomatic relations with the US so it’s hard for me to see it happening.

mschuster91 4y ago
Oh we absolutely can do that. Microsoft barely avoided that fate over their antics with Internet Explorer back in the days. Anti-American company sentiments are high across Europe, especially when it comes to big tech companies. Our people are sick of US companies playing wild west and stomping all over regulations - AirBnB and Uber caused the most public backlash here (AirBnB because of people complaining that they were priced out of their homes and illegal hotel-style operations disrupting their lives, Uber because taxi drivers have pretty good lobby connections), followed by Facebook (which was mostly a topic for privacy nerds). Also, we have not forgotten who caused the 2008 financial crisis and who keeps dodging tax and labor laws while the taxpayers are left to deal with the followup costs. Pay up and behave or get kicked out, GDPR was just the beginning (and once we get the Irish authorities to behave, your companies are done). The EU bureaucracy is like a big tanker ship, slow as molasses, but once it is moving it is not stoppable other than by going out of its way.
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  Obviously the EU can institute rules and fine companies that break them. But forcing companies to break up or kicking them out of Europe might be a step too far for the American government. Is the EU really willing to enter a Cold War with the us? Especially with the Russia situation I’m not sure they’re even able to without mass protests because the lng pipeline from the us will immediately dry up.
  - theplumber 4y ago
    EU could break up the EU operations of the said company and it leaves it up to the company whether to break up in other parts of the world or just in Europe. Just think how many shell companies are created to dodge taxes. Same can be done here.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - antioppressor 4y ago
    They let these unregulated behemots to plunder effortlessly without any repercussions in the last 10 years or so. These rules are just topical treatment and came already too late.
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    When Microsoft made claims like you are back in the day we called it FUD. Dude, our government in the USA is barely functional right now. If they can't pull together for basic necessities but pulls together to go to 'cold' war with Europe over business practices the normies here would revolt. People can't afford rent, food, but the government's focus is ensuring Apple's profits? Yeah, good luck getting the people to support that. "I'm sorry you are at your breaking point, but real issue is poor Apple's profit struggle in Europe!".
    - colinmhayes 4y ago
      The government had no problem instituting mega sanctions on Russia, entire European will obviously be a harder political pill to swallow but really doesn’t seem out of the question.
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        The US barely traded with Russia anyway, and most of it was aircraft, vehicles and various services [1]. Sanctioning off Russia was and is easy for the US, the only major problem is the loss of soft power the US had with the OPEC and the resulting hike in oil prices. The ones really affected by the sanctions are us Europeans. [1] https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/russia-and-eurasia/russia https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/russia...
        colinmhayes 4y ago
        Sanctioning Russia was a huge gamble in that it will likely lead to a heavily decreased reliance on USD globally as well as create competitors to swift which the us uses to enforce its hegemony.
        mschuster91 4y ago
        The US dollar will always be the major currency of the world. What should replace it? The Euro is a good valuable currency, but we lack the military power that secures the US dollar plus we suffer from internal issues like the Italian debt that threatens to destabilize the Euro once again. Japan is a major economy, but still small and it has issues because its backing by the government is uncertain after "Abenomics" and the gerontification of Japanese society. The Chinese currencies suffer from cashflow control measures, and who the fuck would buy anything from Russia even if they had more to offer than barely functioning tanks, oil, gas and grain?
  - freeflight 4y ago
    > I’m not sure they’re even able to without mass protests because the lng pipeline from the us will immediately dry up. The cold war has already gone hot thanks to "Fuck the EU" US interference in Ukraine [0] by now having escalated into a full blown open war, just like there is no "LNG pipeline from the US" to Europe. > not sure they’re even able to without mass protests Do you mean mass protests like they we had over the invasion of Iraq? That didn't lead to anything and thus has crippled the global peace movement to this day. That's why the idea that European people will "take to the streets" to protest for "American gas", is pretty out there and quite fantastical. Before that happens you will see people take to the streets to protest the sanctions that are mainly responsible for this economic hardship, sanctions pushed for by Washington. [0] https://youtu.be/WV9J6sxCs5k https://youtu.be/WV9J6sxCs5k
    - _kbh_ 4y ago
      > The cold war has already gone hot thanks to "Fuck the EU" US interference in Ukraine [0] by now having escalated into a full blown open war, just like there is no "LNG pipeline from the US" to Europe. The Cold War got hot cause of Russia, no one else. Russia is the one who decided to invade Ukraine, Russia is the one who decides to bomb children, Russia is the one who decides to commit genocide against the Ukrainians, Russia is solely responsible for this war. No amount of “Ukrainian bio weapons” or “Ukrainian witch battalions” or “Ukrainian inhuman super soldiers” stories pushed by the kremlin will change this fact.
      - freeflight 4y ago
        > The Cold War got hot cause of Russia, no one else. Because decades of NATO expansion have nothing to do with this [0], having literal NATO exercises at the border of Russia [1], just completely normal and not at all an escalation. Nobody ever warned about any of this, it just came completely out of nowhere [2]. While the US would have no issue with Russia holding military exercises in Mexico, and couping the Mexican government. It wouldn't react in any way, most certainly not with the military, it's not like we have a precedent like the Cuban missile crisis, and the US military illegally occupying parts of Cuba to this day, in a very similar way to what Russia has done to Crimea. > Russia is solely responsible for this war. Sure, as long as you just wholesale ignore and deny what actually led to the war and how it was an active choice by US officials to undermine a diplomatic and peaceful solution, brokered by the EU, because "Fuck the EU". In that context most online debates about this topic are similarly dishonest and toxic as war on terror debates in the early 2000s were; Anybody who doesn't join in with the blatant jingoism shall be declared an "enemy supporter", back then it was "terrorist supporter" nowadays it's "Putin supporter" and allegedly the only way out of this is more conflict, more weapons, any diplomatic solution shall be considered "pro Russia propaganda" because the forever war can't stop. In that context you might as well tell me about WMD in Iraq, that's the level of argument you can bring that solely rests on ignoring a coup and insisting how a civil war, resulting from that coup, is totally not a civil war. [0] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-jul-07-me-10464-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-jul-07-me-10464... [1] https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/us-army-to-proceed-with-planned-exercise-in-ukraine/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/us-army-to-... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/13/international/bush-pulls-out-of-abm-treaty-putin-calls-move-a-mistake.html https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/13/international/bush-pulls-...
- botulidze 4y ago
  I just checked Uber from my home to the airport and it’s 17 EUR. If I call yellow cab, price would be 1.5-2x higher and if I imagine a foreigner catching one on the street without the meter - that could get even worse. I went for 2 weeks abroad with a week vacation and other week working remotely. There was no hotel in the area to provide me with the proper accommodation. But Airbnb did that just fine. So I don’t necessarily see those services and companies behind as pure evil. I would say the government running behind and reactively setting limitations rather than proactively thinking about the way to move forward is an issue here.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > I just checked Uber from my home to the airport and it’s 17 EUR. If I call yellow cab, price would be 1.5-2x higher A taxi may be more expensive at "idle" times - but ever tried to grab an Uber at a big event like a concert, a soccer game or Saturday night out drinking? You'll pay triple or more. Regulated taxis are more expensive, but always consistent which is a value on its own. Also, you can be sure that the driver doesn't live in poverty [1] or works ridiculous hours. > and if I imagine a foreigner catching one on the street without the meter - that could get even worse. I can't speak for countries other than Germany, but at least here this is simply not a thing. What is a pain point with German cabs (and other German services) is that the acceptance of credit and especially debit cards is still a bit lackluster, but the situation has massively improved during covid. > There was no hotel in the area to provide me with the proper accommodation. But Airbnb did that just fine. Yeah, because wherever you were is most likely zoned residential, meaning no hotels and the associated noise from partygoers, vehicles and the likes. Are the neighbors of your AirBnB fine with someone renting out a room to randoms? Most likely not. [1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/He-drives-60-hours-a-week-for-Uber-He-s-still-14457115.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/He-drives-60-ho...
    - saddlerustle 4y ago
      > Also, you can be sure that the driver doesn't live in poverty [1] or works ridiculous hours. You absolutely can't. Taxi drivers are independent contractors in most european countries too, with no minimum wage protections or enforcement of hours worked.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  whats the mechanism exactly for the EU to be able to break US companies? you completely eluded that point.
- mediascreen 4y ago
  As a Swede with pretty much the opposite views, your monolithic EU "we" sounds pretty offensive. The 2008 financial crisis might have started in the US, but outcomes in European countries varied greatly depending on local policies and debt levels. It's hardly Americas fault that some European countries had taken on very high levels of government debt. AirBnB and Uber seems pretty easy to regulate on a local level and in many places in Europe they are.
- someweirdperson 4y ago
  > Anti-American company sentiments are high across Europe, especially when it comes to big tech companies. Not "especially" but exactly those. Almost no other american companies are known here. Of course there are McDonalds and Coca-Cola, but their bad reputation is for their unhealthy products, not the companies themselves.
- freeflight 4y ago
  > Also, we have not forgotten who caused the 2008 financial crisis and who keeps dodging tax and labor laws while the taxpayers are left to deal with the followup costs. But we have apparently forgotten about this [0], nearly a decade later and it still remains a completely ignored issue that pretty much nobody was held accountable for except the people who drew attention to it. [0] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/document/activities/cont/201403/20140307ATT80674/20140307ATT80674EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/document/activities/cont/2014...
- bigDinosaur 4y ago
  Honestly, the EU better step up actually creating tech companies then, because the current situation generally sucks. I'd happily use European alternatives to the products from Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, etc. but you have very little at that level. For my use cases there's nothing from the EU to replace those companies for me. There are some alternative offerings but they're usually far inferior and so I can't count them as replacements. The ones that are good usually end up moving to the US because it actually isn't insanely difficult to run a business there. Even Linux is more an American product at this point than a European one with Intel being iirc the biggest contributor. I just think it's a bit of a joke that the EU strategy is to regulate American companies to this extent without having any coherent vision on developing genuinely viable alternatives and providing incentives to stay in the EU.
oaiey 4y ago
Well, they can leave the market. But the problem here is, that the EU concepts are often adapted elsewhere (e.g. GDPR is more or less adopted by California) especially, since these regulations often make sense and are not too political/onesided. GDPR - while we all hated it - make sense. This DMA - while it is extremely hurtful for the gatekeepers - make sense for the users.
- hamter 4y ago
  > But the problem here is, that the EU concepts are often adapted elsewhere oh no anything but that
- hnbad 4y ago
  > GDPR - while we all hated it Speak for yourself. Most users don't hate the GDPR, they hate the way companies tried to game it (very incompetently, I might add) by adding obtuse banners and modal dialogs. As for companies: mostly US companies hated it because they previously got away with extremely abusive business models whereas EU companies were already facing similar regulations in individual EU member states.
  - oaiey 4y ago
    Not speaking as a user but an architect needing to work it once though dozens of huge legacy systems .. as a user I love it. I am the biggest advocate.

mschuster91 4y ago

Oh we absolutely can do that. Microsoft barely avoided that fate over their antics with Internet Explorer back in the days. Anti-American company sentiments are high across Europe, especially when it comes to big tech companies. Our people are sick of US companies playing wild west and stomping all over regulations - AirBnB and Uber caused the most public backlash here (AirBnB because of people complaining that they were priced out of their homes and illegal hotel-style operations disrupting their lives, Uber because taxi drivers have pretty good lobby connections), followed by Facebook (which was mostly a topic for privacy nerds). Also, we have not forgotten who caused the 2008 financial crisis and who keeps dodging tax and labor laws while the taxpayers are left to deal with the followup costs. Pay up and behave or get kicked out, GDPR was just the beginning (and once we get the Irish authorities to behave, your companies are done). The EU bureaucracy is like a big tanker ship, slow as molasses, but once it is moving it is not stoppable other than by going out of its way.

colinmhayes 4y ago
Obviously the EU can institute rules and fine companies that break them. But forcing companies to break up or kicking them out of Europe might be a step too far for the American government. Is the EU really willing to enter a Cold War with the us? Especially with the Russia situation I’m not sure they’re even able to without mass protests because the lng pipeline from the us will immediately dry up.
- theplumber 4y ago
  EU could break up the EU operations of the said company and it leaves it up to the company whether to break up in other parts of the world or just in Europe. Just think how many shell companies are created to dodge taxes. Same can be done here.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- antioppressor 4y ago
  They let these unregulated behemots to plunder effortlessly without any repercussions in the last 10 years or so. These rules are just topical treatment and came already too late.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  When Microsoft made claims like you are back in the day we called it FUD. Dude, our government in the USA is barely functional right now. If they can't pull together for basic necessities but pulls together to go to 'cold' war with Europe over business practices the normies here would revolt. People can't afford rent, food, but the government's focus is ensuring Apple's profits? Yeah, good luck getting the people to support that. "I'm sorry you are at your breaking point, but real issue is poor Apple's profit struggle in Europe!".
  - colinmhayes 4y ago
    The government had no problem instituting mega sanctions on Russia, entire European will obviously be a harder political pill to swallow but really doesn’t seem out of the question.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      The US barely traded with Russia anyway, and most of it was aircraft, vehicles and various services [1]. Sanctioning off Russia was and is easy for the US, the only major problem is the loss of soft power the US had with the OPEC and the resulting hike in oil prices. The ones really affected by the sanctions are us Europeans. [1] https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/russia-and-eurasia/russia https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/russia...
      - colinmhayes 4y ago
        Sanctioning Russia was a huge gamble in that it will likely lead to a heavily decreased reliance on USD globally as well as create competitors to swift which the us uses to enforce its hegemony.
        mschuster91 4y ago
        The US dollar will always be the major currency of the world. What should replace it? The Euro is a good valuable currency, but we lack the military power that secures the US dollar plus we suffer from internal issues like the Italian debt that threatens to destabilize the Euro once again. Japan is a major economy, but still small and it has issues because its backing by the government is uncertain after "Abenomics" and the gerontification of Japanese society. The Chinese currencies suffer from cashflow control measures, and who the fuck would buy anything from Russia even if they had more to offer than barely functioning tanks, oil, gas and grain?
- freeflight 4y ago
  > I’m not sure they’re even able to without mass protests because the lng pipeline from the us will immediately dry up. The cold war has already gone hot thanks to "Fuck the EU" US interference in Ukraine [0] by now having escalated into a full blown open war, just like there is no "LNG pipeline from the US" to Europe. > not sure they’re even able to without mass protests Do you mean mass protests like they we had over the invasion of Iraq? That didn't lead to anything and thus has crippled the global peace movement to this day. That's why the idea that European people will "take to the streets" to protest for "American gas", is pretty out there and quite fantastical. Before that happens you will see people take to the streets to protest the sanctions that are mainly responsible for this economic hardship, sanctions pushed for by Washington. [0] https://youtu.be/WV9J6sxCs5k https://youtu.be/WV9J6sxCs5k
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > The cold war has already gone hot thanks to "Fuck the EU" US interference in Ukraine [0] by now having escalated into a full blown open war, just like there is no "LNG pipeline from the US" to Europe. The Cold War got hot cause of Russia, no one else. Russia is the one who decided to invade Ukraine, Russia is the one who decides to bomb children, Russia is the one who decides to commit genocide against the Ukrainians, Russia is solely responsible for this war. No amount of “Ukrainian bio weapons” or “Ukrainian witch battalions” or “Ukrainian inhuman super soldiers” stories pushed by the kremlin will change this fact.
    - freeflight 4y ago
      > The Cold War got hot cause of Russia, no one else. Because decades of NATO expansion have nothing to do with this [0], having literal NATO exercises at the border of Russia [1], just completely normal and not at all an escalation. Nobody ever warned about any of this, it just came completely out of nowhere [2]. While the US would have no issue with Russia holding military exercises in Mexico, and couping the Mexican government. It wouldn't react in any way, most certainly not with the military, it's not like we have a precedent like the Cuban missile crisis, and the US military illegally occupying parts of Cuba to this day, in a very similar way to what Russia has done to Crimea. > Russia is solely responsible for this war. Sure, as long as you just wholesale ignore and deny what actually led to the war and how it was an active choice by US officials to undermine a diplomatic and peaceful solution, brokered by the EU, because "Fuck the EU". In that context most online debates about this topic are similarly dishonest and toxic as war on terror debates in the early 2000s were; Anybody who doesn't join in with the blatant jingoism shall be declared an "enemy supporter", back then it was "terrorist supporter" nowadays it's "Putin supporter" and allegedly the only way out of this is more conflict, more weapons, any diplomatic solution shall be considered "pro Russia propaganda" because the forever war can't stop. In that context you might as well tell me about WMD in Iraq, that's the level of argument you can bring that solely rests on ignoring a coup and insisting how a civil war, resulting from that coup, is totally not a civil war. [0] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-jul-07-me-10464-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-jul-07-me-10464... [1] https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/us-army-to-proceed-with-planned-exercise-in-ukraine/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/us-army-to-... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/13/international/bush-pulls-out-of-abm-treaty-putin-calls-move-a-mistake.html https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/13/international/bush-pulls-...
botulidze 4y ago
I just checked Uber from my home to the airport and it’s 17 EUR. If I call yellow cab, price would be 1.5-2x higher and if I imagine a foreigner catching one on the street without the meter - that could get even worse. I went for 2 weeks abroad with a week vacation and other week working remotely. There was no hotel in the area to provide me with the proper accommodation. But Airbnb did that just fine. So I don’t necessarily see those services and companies behind as pure evil. I would say the government running behind and reactively setting limitations rather than proactively thinking about the way to move forward is an issue here.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > I just checked Uber from my home to the airport and it’s 17 EUR. If I call yellow cab, price would be 1.5-2x higher A taxi may be more expensive at "idle" times - but ever tried to grab an Uber at a big event like a concert, a soccer game or Saturday night out drinking? You'll pay triple or more. Regulated taxis are more expensive, but always consistent which is a value on its own. Also, you can be sure that the driver doesn't live in poverty [1] or works ridiculous hours. > and if I imagine a foreigner catching one on the street without the meter - that could get even worse. I can't speak for countries other than Germany, but at least here this is simply not a thing. What is a pain point with German cabs (and other German services) is that the acceptance of credit and especially debit cards is still a bit lackluster, but the situation has massively improved during covid. > There was no hotel in the area to provide me with the proper accommodation. But Airbnb did that just fine. Yeah, because wherever you were is most likely zoned residential, meaning no hotels and the associated noise from partygoers, vehicles and the likes. Are the neighbors of your AirBnB fine with someone renting out a room to randoms? Most likely not. [1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/He-drives-60-hours-a-week-for-Uber-He-s-still-14457115.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/He-drives-60-ho...
  - saddlerustle 4y ago
    > Also, you can be sure that the driver doesn't live in poverty [1] or works ridiculous hours. You absolutely can't. Taxi drivers are independent contractors in most european countries too, with no minimum wage protections or enforcement of hours worked.
ekianjo 4y ago
whats the mechanism exactly for the EU to be able to break US companies? you completely eluded that point.
mediascreen 4y ago
As a Swede with pretty much the opposite views, your monolithic EU "we" sounds pretty offensive. The 2008 financial crisis might have started in the US, but outcomes in European countries varied greatly depending on local policies and debt levels. It's hardly Americas fault that some European countries had taken on very high levels of government debt. AirBnB and Uber seems pretty easy to regulate on a local level and in many places in Europe they are.
someweirdperson 4y ago
> Anti-American company sentiments are high across Europe, especially when it comes to big tech companies. Not "especially" but exactly those. Almost no other american companies are known here. Of course there are McDonalds and Coca-Cola, but their bad reputation is for their unhealthy products, not the companies themselves.
freeflight 4y ago
> Also, we have not forgotten who caused the 2008 financial crisis and who keeps dodging tax and labor laws while the taxpayers are left to deal with the followup costs. But we have apparently forgotten about this [0], nearly a decade later and it still remains a completely ignored issue that pretty much nobody was held accountable for except the people who drew attention to it. [0] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/document/activities/cont/201403/20140307ATT80674/20140307ATT80674EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/document/activities/cont/2014...
bigDinosaur 4y ago
Honestly, the EU better step up actually creating tech companies then, because the current situation generally sucks. I'd happily use European alternatives to the products from Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, etc. but you have very little at that level. For my use cases there's nothing from the EU to replace those companies for me. There are some alternative offerings but they're usually far inferior and so I can't count them as replacements. The ones that are good usually end up moving to the US because it actually isn't insanely difficult to run a business there. Even Linux is more an American product at this point than a European one with Intel being iirc the biggest contributor. I just think it's a bit of a joke that the EU strategy is to regulate American companies to this extent without having any coherent vision on developing genuinely viable alternatives and providing incentives to stay in the EU.

oaiey 4y ago

Well, they can leave the market. But the problem here is, that the EU concepts are often adapted elsewhere (e.g. GDPR is more or less adopted by California) especially, since these regulations often make sense and are not too political/onesided. GDPR - while we all hated it - make sense. This DMA - while it is extremely hurtful for the gatekeepers - make sense for the users.

hamter 4y ago
> But the problem here is, that the EU concepts are often adapted elsewhere oh no anything but that
hnbad 4y ago
> GDPR - while we all hated it Speak for yourself. Most users don't hate the GDPR, they hate the way companies tried to game it (very incompetently, I might add) by adding obtuse banners and modal dialogs. As for companies: mostly US companies hated it because they previously got away with extremely abusive business models whereas EU companies were already facing similar regulations in individual EU member states.
- oaiey 4y ago
  Not speaking as a user but an architect needing to work it once though dozens of huge legacy systems .. as a user I love it. I am the biggest advocate.