4 ms·

What do you mean by "expectation"? One day on call, one day paid overtime; anything else is abusive. There should be no incentive to require or avoid "free" wo

What do you mean by "expectation"? One day on call, one day paid overtime; anything else is abusive. There should be no incentive to require or avoid "free" work, only advance planning of who'll be on call (with more available engineers doing more turns).

mlyle 4y ago
> What do you mean by "expectation"? One day on call, one day paid overtime; anything else is abusive. I don't think being available for work if an unlikely emergency comes up usually justifies the same comp as actively working that entire time.
- reddiky 4y ago
  If you're having to actively shape your real life to accommodate your work life then you should be compensated (Not attending events / bringing your computer with you to dinner, etc). Do firefighters only get paid for the amount of time actively fighting fires?
  - mlyle 4y ago
    Again, I didn't say that you shouldn't be compensated-- just that you shouldn't be compensated at the rate if they were having you actively doing work the entire time (else, why not just have you actively do work the whole time?). > Do firefighters only get paid for the amount of time actively fighting fires? I believe firefighters tend to do 24 hour shifts, where they actively work 8 hours and are paid full rate for that (during which time they have responsibilities in maintenance, etc)... ...and are paid a reduced rate for the other 16 hours they are on standby. (Here, in my jurisdiction, it's 10 hours + 14 hours). During this time they hang out at the firehouse, but may be eating, watching TV, sleeping, etc. They do 3 of these 24 hour periods per week.
- sam0x17 4y ago
  Many orgs do comp their employees for the entire time they are on call. DoD does this for on-call employees due to past labor law issues, so it probably is legally required but rarely enforced.
  - mlyle 4y ago
    DoD comps at 10% of overtime rate when not actively working an issue. https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/140025/140025_vol542.pdf https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/14... The comment I replied to appeared to advocate for 100%.
    - sam0x17 4y ago
      I would advocate for 100% but 10% is way better than 0%. I didn't have any on-call peers during my time in DoD so I'm unfamiliar with the structure for that arrangement, but very familiar with regular overtime stuff with DoD.
      - mlyle 4y ago
        10% of time-and-a-half (15% of normal) seems reasonable for time that you are expected to be able to do your own thing but stay available. I negotiated 25% of normal pay for similar things. 24 hours of call at 15%, where they never call you, becomes a half day of pay. If you get a call, whether brief or using the whole 2 hour chunk, you're basically paid for a full normal day. This all feels just and reasonable to both sides. 100% of overtime rate doesn't make sense to me because then they're paying just as much as they'd pay to have you actively work the entire time.
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  I do. It means that time is not mine to do with as I like. I cannot spontaneously go out of town, nor can I decide to have a few drinks. I cannot start a project that needs to see completion - this includes simply involved dinners, hobby projects, and sometimes home repairs and car maintenance. If it is at night, I have to sacrifice sleep quality for being able to hear the phone. In other words, they are working hours with some degree of personal freedom during the day. The assignment is to be ready in case things go wrong.
  - mlyle 4y ago
    Sure, I'm not saying it deserves no compensation. But e.g. for defense contract stuff, I've accepted 1/4th my normal pay rate to be available for a span of hours (and then 150%, 2 hour minimum to actually do anything). Yes, I can't drink, or become unreachable, and need to be able to get to a computer within a few minutes. But I can read a book, watch TV, work on hobby projects, etc. 150% for the entire time seems unreasonable.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      Said differently, if the employer is going to pay you overtime rates for the period, why wouldn't they just have you actually work overtime, prioritizing a production outage over regular development, but regular development over watching TV?
      - mlyle 4y ago
        Thank you-- this is a very cogent phrasing of the argument.

mlyle 4y ago

> What do you mean by "expectation"? One day on call, one day paid overtime; anything else is abusive. I don't think being available for work if an unlikely emergency comes up usually justifies the same comp as actively working that entire time.

reddiky 4y ago
If you're having to actively shape your real life to accommodate your work life then you should be compensated (Not attending events / bringing your computer with you to dinner, etc). Do firefighters only get paid for the amount of time actively fighting fires?
- mlyle 4y ago
  Again, I didn't say that you shouldn't be compensated-- just that you shouldn't be compensated at the rate if they were having you actively doing work the entire time (else, why not just have you actively do work the whole time?). > Do firefighters only get paid for the amount of time actively fighting fires? I believe firefighters tend to do 24 hour shifts, where they actively work 8 hours and are paid full rate for that (during which time they have responsibilities in maintenance, etc)... ...and are paid a reduced rate for the other 16 hours they are on standby. (Here, in my jurisdiction, it's 10 hours + 14 hours). During this time they hang out at the firehouse, but may be eating, watching TV, sleeping, etc. They do 3 of these 24 hour periods per week.
sam0x17 4y ago
Many orgs do comp their employees for the entire time they are on call. DoD does this for on-call employees due to past labor law issues, so it probably is legally required but rarely enforced.
- mlyle 4y ago
  DoD comps at 10% of overtime rate when not actively working an issue. https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/140025/140025_vol542.pdf https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/14... The comment I replied to appeared to advocate for 100%.
  - sam0x17 4y ago
    I would advocate for 100% but 10% is way better than 0%. I didn't have any on-call peers during my time in DoD so I'm unfamiliar with the structure for that arrangement, but very familiar with regular overtime stuff with DoD.
    - mlyle 4y ago
      10% of time-and-a-half (15% of normal) seems reasonable for time that you are expected to be able to do your own thing but stay available. I negotiated 25% of normal pay for similar things. 24 hours of call at 15%, where they never call you, becomes a half day of pay. If you get a call, whether brief or using the whole 2 hour chunk, you're basically paid for a full normal day. This all feels just and reasonable to both sides. 100% of overtime rate doesn't make sense to me because then they're paying just as much as they'd pay to have you actively work the entire time.
Broken_Hippo 4y ago
I do. It means that time is not mine to do with as I like. I cannot spontaneously go out of town, nor can I decide to have a few drinks. I cannot start a project that needs to see completion - this includes simply involved dinners, hobby projects, and sometimes home repairs and car maintenance. If it is at night, I have to sacrifice sleep quality for being able to hear the phone. In other words, they are working hours with some degree of personal freedom during the day. The assignment is to be ready in case things go wrong.
- mlyle 4y ago
  Sure, I'm not saying it deserves no compensation. But e.g. for defense contract stuff, I've accepted 1/4th my normal pay rate to be available for a span of hours (and then 150%, 2 hour minimum to actually do anything). Yes, I can't drink, or become unreachable, and need to be able to get to a computer within a few minutes. But I can read a book, watch TV, work on hobby projects, etc. 150% for the entire time seems unreasonable.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Said differently, if the employer is going to pay you overtime rates for the period, why wouldn't they just have you actually work overtime, prioritizing a production outage over regular development, but regular development over watching TV?
    - mlyle 4y ago
      Thank you-- this is a very cogent phrasing of the argument.