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What HackerNews thinks will happen: "zomg, I will finally be able to run Arch on my iPhone!" What will actually happen: "honey, something is wrong with my phon

by fbanon 4y ago

What HackerNews thinks will happen: "zomg, I will finally be able to run Arch on my iPhone!" What will actually happen: "honey, something is wrong with my phone, whenever I unlock it, a popup jumps up that says 'Please update the Adobe™ Updater™ to get up to date Adobe™ Software Updates', could you take a look at it?"

thrawway 4y ago
You forgot the best part: the same people who think the former are responsible for the latter.
akersten 4y ago
Yeah, I'm honestly shocked at how welcomed the concept of "the government is telling developers that they must make their product less secure and streamlined" is here... This will not bring the interoperability utopia many believe, unless you mean 8 different app updaters bogging down your phone because now there's "competition" and the DrainMyBattery Store only charges 15% fees so it's the only place you can get CoolApp.
- asah 4y ago
  small price for an open ecosystem. honestly, Apple had their chance and while claiming to self-police, in fact they enacted an obvious walled garden that went way way way beyond security requirements.
  - d12bb 4y ago
    What is this open ecosystem worth if it's not as good as the closed one we have now? The choice always was there as one can buy Android (and install some Open(TM)Rom) or any niche OS.
- justapassenger 4y ago
  Yeah, and that unsecured Linux is destroying the world! It’s not about making products less secure. That’s what apple makes you wanna think. It’s about giving customers choice. They can stay in Apple ecosystem (I will for example). Or they can not. Companies like Apple will have to work much harder now, to give both users and developers enough value to justify being locked in.
  - nuker 4y ago
    > They can stay in Apple ecosystem Nope, Adobe will make sure all its apps require Adobe App Store. Same for Facebook with Whatsapp. No more stupid Apple store restrictions, yay!!
    - woojoo666 4y ago
      There's already a counterexample to this: Android. All Adobe apps are on the Play Store
      - nuker 4y ago
        Check recent story about IDFA on iOS and Facebook gone mad about it. No such story with Android.
        woojoo666 4y ago
        Are you imply that if Android got rid of advertising IDs like iOS, then Facebook would take their app off the play store? Not so sure about that
        nuker 4y ago
        They lost and keep losing serious money.
        justapassenger 4y ago
        They’ll loose waaaay more money by removing their app from Apple App Store, even if they have their own. People really don’t like extra friction. That’s why you see so much fight about getting stuff preinstalled. Perfect example is iMessage - it’s years away other messengers, but it’s good snuff and it’s default so it dominates USA market.
    - deadbunny 4y ago
      Strange, this isn't an issue on Android.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
izacus 4y ago
In reality none of that will happen. The magical rockstar engineers of Apple will listen for their best in the world UX and handcraft artisanal UI that will respectfully explain users what causes the popup.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Not to mention use plenty of dark patterns to steer them away from it. Not to mention the vast majority of users will not bother to deal with alternative app stores when the vast overwhelming majority of existing apps will remain on the official App Store.
  - nuker 4y ago
    > when the vast overwhelming majority of existing apps will remain on the official App Store. Oh my sweet summer child! Lol
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      Nice condescending snark. Is it based on anything? My own position, in comparison, actually is. Contrary to your insinuation, it is based on jadedness and cynicism. I’ll give you the Cliff’s Notes of this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32163704 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32163704 1. Facebook and Google, to put it bluntly, are not exactly product powerhouses these days and any attempts to present yet another platform will be met with skepticism and they simply will not have enough new apps to lure over users. 2. Without customer interest, third party developers will keep their apps on the official App Store, just as they do on Android on the Play Store, because that’s where the users are. They want the most eyeballs. 2.5. Sure, Facebook and co. can try to cut exclusive deals with third party devs to get apps on their store, but that is tricky, just see Microsoft’s or BlackBerry’s failure to woo devs to their platforms. 3. Consumers are tired of all of the accounts and services they have to deal with at this point, and dealing with more app stores will be a source of friction. Users are tired of this shit. 4. Facebook or Google trying to spur artificial growth of third party iOS stores by making their apps exclusive will likely run into regulator pushback, especially if those stores permit greater user tracking. Okay, now justify your insult.
Aperocky 4y ago
So you're saying this is finally the year of the Linux Desktop?
bloppe 4y ago
It sounds like you don't understand what's actually in this regulation. There are some good summaries posted in this very comment thread.
- balozi 4y ago
  I believe they are simply observing the predictable divergence between the intention and the outcome of said regulation.
  - piva00 4y ago
    Good that in the EU we live under rules that are judged on the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.
- d12bb 4y ago
  Well, to sum it up Apple-wise, it's making iOS more like Android. I like iOS. I don't like Android. Short story..
lapetitejort 4y ago
So true. On my Pixel phone, which allows alternate app stores, I had to update the Adobe Updater to update Adobe Reader, Epic EpicStore to update Fortnite Update Store to update Fortnite, TenCent Store to update Grindr, and finally F-Droid Pro Max Store to update Signal. Why do I have to download so many app stores on Android!!
- phoe18 4y ago
  missed the /s.
- nuker 4y ago
  Did Google removed IDFA yet? No. So FB is OK with Android so far.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    It's on its way https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/16/google-plans-android-privacy-change-similar-to-apples.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/16/google-plans-android-privacy...
    - nuker 4y ago
      > But while Meta fought against Apple’s changes, it voiced support for the way Google plans to implement its privacy > “[It is] encouraging to see this long-term, collaborative approach to privacy-protective personalized advertising from Google,” Graham Mudd, vice president of product marketing Not the same thing, looks like. Facebook likes Google.
      - urthor 4y ago
        Google is an ad revenue company haha. It's got the EXACT same incentive as FB to track you.
- apexalpha 4y ago
  Fortnite is not on the Google Play store because Google used their market dominance to force them to pay 30% commission or leave. This is exactly the bad duopolistic behaviour this act is trying to break open.
hypertele-Xii 4y ago
And then you can remove the Adobe™ Updater™ bloatware and install something else that doesn't nag you so.
newaccount74 4y ago
The security on iPhone comes from the app sandbox, not from App Store review. There are lots of scam apps on the App Store, despite Apple's review. Apps from 3rd party stores will be sandboxed just like apps from the App Store are today.
- dwaite 4y ago
  >The security on iPhone comes from the app sandbox, not from App Store review. Some of it. But Apple has the real-world identity of developers/organizations, and will ban them from the App Store for malicious behavior. And next to no privacy protections are from App Sandbox. You can turn off things like advertising identifiers, but there are a million other unique hardware identifiers as well as things like IP addresses which can be used to track someone. The way Apple solves this is - you need to get user consent to track, which will also hand you the advertising identifier. But if the user does not consent, you can't work around it by correlating other data from the phone. Or we will kick you out of the store. > There are lots of scam apps on the App Store, despite Apple's review. Just imagine how bad it would be without review. > Apps from 3rd party stores will be sandboxed just like apps from the App Store are today. Will they? Without someone reviewing/approving entitlements for side-loaded apps, they can all effectively seek out as many entitlements from the menu as they want.
  - newaccount74 4y ago
    App Sandbox offers a lot of privacy protections. For example, you can't access bluetooth / GPS / etc. without the OS asking the user for permission. Apple has also started to require entitlements for local networking, and so on. There's really no point in having Apple check those permissions. It would be much better if the user could check entitlements. What Apple currently offers (the privacy information and the tracking consent) is all based on goodwill from the publisher -- if the publisher says they don't track you, but they still do, it's going to be very hard to prove.
spacexsucks 4y ago
Uh no. How many phones are running F-droid? Please stop spreading useless fear. And my inlaws or parents have yet to install any malware on their androids. I check regularly.
unity1001 4y ago
Yeah. And that totally clueless person SOMEHOW found how to install a 3rd party app store on her phone and she was able to successfully configure it as well. The argument doesnt make sense. The user is either tech savvy or not tech savvy. ... And even more: You people talk as if that doesnt happen today. Nobody will try to scam anyone by creating an entire freaking APP STORE while they can just phish them by sending them an email to get their credit card numbers and whatever data they can collect. And further: Today anti-virus software is capable of detecting and preventing most of those scams already. We are not in mid 2000s. Anti virus software will not disappear with the appearance of 3rd party app stores. So the problem does not even make sense to be considered a problem. ... It just feels like some of you people (i mostly saw Americans) are SO mentally hostage to your corporations that you really defend the indefensible.

by fbanon 4y ago

thrawway 4y ago

You forgot the best part: the same people who think the former are responsible for the latter.

akersten 4y ago

Yeah, I'm honestly shocked at how welcomed the concept of "the government is telling developers that they must make their product less secure and streamlined" is here... This will not bring the interoperability utopia many believe, unless you mean 8 different app updaters bogging down your phone because now there's "competition" and the DrainMyBattery Store only charges 15% fees so it's the only place you can get CoolApp.

asah 4y ago
small price for an open ecosystem. honestly, Apple had their chance and while claiming to self-police, in fact they enacted an obvious walled garden that went way way way beyond security requirements.
- d12bb 4y ago
  What is this open ecosystem worth if it's not as good as the closed one we have now? The choice always was there as one can buy Android (and install some Open(TM)Rom) or any niche OS.
justapassenger 4y ago
Yeah, and that unsecured Linux is destroying the world! It’s not about making products less secure. That’s what apple makes you wanna think. It’s about giving customers choice. They can stay in Apple ecosystem (I will for example). Or they can not. Companies like Apple will have to work much harder now, to give both users and developers enough value to justify being locked in.
- nuker 4y ago
  > They can stay in Apple ecosystem Nope, Adobe will make sure all its apps require Adobe App Store. Same for Facebook with Whatsapp. No more stupid Apple store restrictions, yay!!
  - woojoo666 4y ago
    There's already a counterexample to this: Android. All Adobe apps are on the Play Store
    - nuker 4y ago
      Check recent story about IDFA on iOS and Facebook gone mad about it. No such story with Android.
      - woojoo666 4y ago
        Are you imply that if Android got rid of advertising IDs like iOS, then Facebook would take their app off the play store? Not so sure about that
        nuker 4y ago
        They lost and keep losing serious money.
        justapassenger 4y ago
        They’ll loose waaaay more money by removing their app from Apple App Store, even if they have their own. People really don’t like extra friction. That’s why you see so much fight about getting stuff preinstalled. Perfect example is iMessage - it’s years away other messengers, but it’s good snuff and it’s default so it dominates USA market.
  - deadbunny 4y ago
    Strange, this isn't an issue on Android.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

izacus 4y ago

In reality none of that will happen. The magical rockstar engineers of Apple will listen for their best in the world UX and handcraft artisanal UI that will respectfully explain users what causes the popup.

Apocryphon 4y ago
Not to mention use plenty of dark patterns to steer them away from it. Not to mention the vast majority of users will not bother to deal with alternative app stores when the vast overwhelming majority of existing apps will remain on the official App Store.
- nuker 4y ago
  > when the vast overwhelming majority of existing apps will remain on the official App Store. Oh my sweet summer child! Lol
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    Nice condescending snark. Is it based on anything? My own position, in comparison, actually is. Contrary to your insinuation, it is based on jadedness and cynicism. I’ll give you the Cliff’s Notes of this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32163704 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32163704 1. Facebook and Google, to put it bluntly, are not exactly product powerhouses these days and any attempts to present yet another platform will be met with skepticism and they simply will not have enough new apps to lure over users. 2. Without customer interest, third party developers will keep their apps on the official App Store, just as they do on Android on the Play Store, because that’s where the users are. They want the most eyeballs. 2.5. Sure, Facebook and co. can try to cut exclusive deals with third party devs to get apps on their store, but that is tricky, just see Microsoft’s or BlackBerry’s failure to woo devs to their platforms. 3. Consumers are tired of all of the accounts and services they have to deal with at this point, and dealing with more app stores will be a source of friction. Users are tired of this shit. 4. Facebook or Google trying to spur artificial growth of third party iOS stores by making their apps exclusive will likely run into regulator pushback, especially if those stores permit greater user tracking. Okay, now justify your insult.

Aperocky 4y ago

So you're saying this is finally the year of the Linux Desktop?

bloppe 4y ago

It sounds like you don't understand what's actually in this regulation. There are some good summaries posted in this very comment thread.

balozi 4y ago
I believe they are simply observing the predictable divergence between the intention and the outcome of said regulation.
- piva00 4y ago
  Good that in the EU we live under rules that are judged on the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.
d12bb 4y ago
Well, to sum it up Apple-wise, it's making iOS more like Android. I like iOS. I don't like Android. Short story..

lapetitejort 4y ago

So true. On my Pixel phone, which allows alternate app stores, I had to update the Adobe Updater to update Adobe Reader, Epic EpicStore to update Fortnite Update Store to update Fortnite, TenCent Store to update Grindr, and finally F-Droid Pro Max Store to update Signal. Why do I have to download so many app stores on Android!!

phoe18 4y ago
missed the /s.
nuker 4y ago
Did Google removed IDFA yet? No. So FB is OK with Android so far.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  It's on its way https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/16/google-plans-android-privacy-change-similar-to-apples.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/16/google-plans-android-privacy...
  - nuker 4y ago
    > But while Meta fought against Apple’s changes, it voiced support for the way Google plans to implement its privacy > “[It is] encouraging to see this long-term, collaborative approach to privacy-protective personalized advertising from Google,” Graham Mudd, vice president of product marketing Not the same thing, looks like. Facebook likes Google.
    - urthor 4y ago
      Google is an ad revenue company haha. It's got the EXACT same incentive as FB to track you.
apexalpha 4y ago
Fortnite is not on the Google Play store because Google used their market dominance to force them to pay 30% commission or leave. This is exactly the bad duopolistic behaviour this act is trying to break open.

hypertele-Xii 4y ago

And then you can remove the Adobe™ Updater™ bloatware and install something else that doesn't nag you so.

newaccount74 4y ago

The security on iPhone comes from the app sandbox, not from App Store review. There are lots of scam apps on the App Store, despite Apple's review. Apps from 3rd party stores will be sandboxed just like apps from the App Store are today.

dwaite 4y ago
>The security on iPhone comes from the app sandbox, not from App Store review. Some of it. But Apple has the real-world identity of developers/organizations, and will ban them from the App Store for malicious behavior. And next to no privacy protections are from App Sandbox. You can turn off things like advertising identifiers, but there are a million other unique hardware identifiers as well as things like IP addresses which can be used to track someone. The way Apple solves this is - you need to get user consent to track, which will also hand you the advertising identifier. But if the user does not consent, you can't work around it by correlating other data from the phone. Or we will kick you out of the store. > There are lots of scam apps on the App Store, despite Apple's review. Just imagine how bad it would be without review. > Apps from 3rd party stores will be sandboxed just like apps from the App Store are today. Will they? Without someone reviewing/approving entitlements for side-loaded apps, they can all effectively seek out as many entitlements from the menu as they want.
- newaccount74 4y ago
  App Sandbox offers a lot of privacy protections. For example, you can't access bluetooth / GPS / etc. without the OS asking the user for permission. Apple has also started to require entitlements for local networking, and so on. There's really no point in having Apple check those permissions. It would be much better if the user could check entitlements. What Apple currently offers (the privacy information and the tracking consent) is all based on goodwill from the publisher -- if the publisher says they don't track you, but they still do, it's going to be very hard to prove.

spacexsucks 4y ago

Uh no. How many phones are running F-droid? Please stop spreading useless fear. And my inlaws or parents have yet to install any malware on their androids. I check regularly.

unity1001 4y ago

Yeah. And that totally clueless person SOMEHOW found how to install a 3rd party app store on her phone and she was able to successfully configure it as well. The argument doesnt make sense. The user is either tech savvy or not tech savvy. ... And even more: You people talk as if that doesnt happen today. Nobody will try to scam anyone by creating an entire freaking APP STORE while they can just phish them by sending them an email to get their credit card numbers and whatever data they can collect. And further: Today anti-virus software is capable of detecting and preventing most of those scams already. We are not in mid 2000s. Anti virus software will not disappear with the appearance of 3rd party app stores. So the problem does not even make sense to be considered a problem. ... It just feels like some of you people (i mostly saw Americans) are SO mentally hostage to your corporations that you really defend the indefensible.