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> Indeed, here in the states, cyclists pay for the roads that we use. For instance most local roads in cities and counties are paid for with property taxes. No

by wil421 4y ago

> Indeed, here in the states, cyclists pay for the roads that we use. For instance most local roads in cities and counties are paid for with property taxes. Not true for a lot of states. Property tax is not used for roads. Georgia pays for roads using gas taxes and road use fees like registration (tolls contribute a very small amount). Florida is similar but they are much more toll heavy. Alabama is similar as too. All 3 states are in the top 10 roads in America[1]. I believe Georgia plans to charge higher registration fees for EVs at some point. [1] https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/us-road-conditions.html https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/us-road-condition...

Robotbeat 4y ago
EV fees are already much higher than the state gas tax they replace in many places, especially considering the extra sales tax on the battery, tax on electricity, and even personal property tax on the battery. The idea EVs get a free pass is a myth.
- dahfizz 4y ago
  > especially considering the extra sales tax on the battery, tax on electricity, and even personal property tax on the battery. I don't understand, do you pay an extra tax on the battery? Sales & property tax on a $60k car should always be the same, regardless of powertrain.
  - xur17 4y ago
    I'm guessing the argument is that EV's cost more upfront (since they include a battery, etc), but have a lower cost of use. Since you get charged sales tax on the upfront cost, EV's get charged sales tax on a larger percentage of the overall "ownership cost" of the car.
    - Robotbeat 4y ago
      Exactly. With gas cars, you pay for gasoline over time. With electric cars, you pay about 50/50 upfront on battery & over time on electricity. EV owners are being punished for paying for part of the “fuel” costs upfront. For whatever reason, capital costs for consumers are penalized with taxes more than incremental operating costs.
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        I mean, we don’t charge lower gas taxes to luxury cars because they pay more upfront, so I don’t know why this is now an expectation for EVs. And we’ve never had flat taxes for sales; gas is actually the only exception in the US I’m aware of, but that’s probably because of the price volatility of gas making a percentage tax hard to budget for.
      - robertlagrant 4y ago
        > For whatever reason, capital costs for consumers are penalized with taxes more than incremental operating costs. How so? Is the gas tax lower than the purchase taxes?
        Robotbeat 4y ago
        Yes, plus personal property tax. If I own the car for 8 years before selling it and the battery is about $10,000 In value and the sales tax rate is 6% or so, the tax I’m paying is already equal to the gas tax I already typically would pay driving a 30mpg the average number of miles per year in a typical state. And some localities have personal property taxes, and that $10,000 battery often puts the car in a higher bracket, so you end up paying a 4% personal property tax EVERY YEAR on the battery, which is about 5 times what state gas tax would be. And keep in mind many states already charge EV owners a high registration fee that more than makes up for the lack of state gas taxes. So sales tax plus personal property tax plus EV registration fee… you’re already paying nearly an order of magnitude more than the typical consumer pays state gas tax. It’s a pretty stupid idea to charge far more taxes for far lower emissions vehicles if you think climate change is real. Regardless of your rationale about use taxes or whatever. It’s just stupid.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    The electric car I drive (LEAF) costs about $12K-15K more than the roughly comparable ICE car (Versa). Taking the lower estimate, the sales tax difference in my state is $750, which is the state gas tax on just over 3100 gallons or about 100K miles of gasoline purchased for the car.
    - Robotbeat 4y ago
      Yup, and consider that sales tax applies any time the car is sold, and often cars are sold multiple times in their lives.
shkkmo 4y ago
The amount of road funding in the US that comes from gas taxes and road fees varies by state between 1/3 to 2/3. Georgia is one of the lower and funds 40% of road spending from gas taxes, road fees, and tolls (using 2017 numbers.) [0] [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-20/mapping-how-u-s-states-pay-for-roads https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-20/mapping-h...
zip1234 4y ago
Georgia is 3rd in Federal road subsidies: https://www.ajc.com/news/feds-transportation-spending/ https://www.ajc.com/news/feds-transportation-spending/ Usage/registration fees pay for less of roads than people think. There is also this: https://taxfoundation.org/states-road-funding-2019/ https://taxfoundation.org/states-road-funding-2019/
vel0city 4y ago
It really depends on the road in question. I've absolutely voted for city bond projects paid for by property taxes which paid to redo intersections and sections of roads maintained by the city. There are county roads which are maintained by the county which gets most of its funding from property taxes, sales taxes, and vehicle registration taxes. Sure, some funding for some of these projects also come from the state's budgets which is often backed by gas taxes, some funding is from federal sources often by gas taxes, but some of it does come from my property taxes. Then there are state roads, which are almost entirely funded from state and federal (gas) taxes, and federal roads which are almost exclusively funded from gas taxes. On an average day the roads I personally drive on are probably at least 50% funded from property and sales taxes paid by my neighbors and me. Most of my miles driven are almost exclusively on streets managed by my city. For my neighbors commuting deeper into the city driving on a US highway, its probably closer to 5-10% coming from property and sales taxes.
bobthepanda 4y ago
At the state level, sure, but local roads are paid for by local governments using local general taxes, no? A random suburban residential street is not usually getting gas tax money.
- asdff 4y ago
  A random suburban residential street could get away with being repaved every 100 years. The ones in my neighborhood bear contractor stamps from the 1920s at least. A big source of road wear is trucking traffic and usually truck routes are along state routes that get state gas tax funding for maintenance at least.

by wil421 4y ago

Robotbeat 4y ago

EV fees are already much higher than the state gas tax they replace in many places, especially considering the extra sales tax on the battery, tax on electricity, and even personal property tax on the battery. The idea EVs get a free pass is a myth.

dahfizz 4y ago
> especially considering the extra sales tax on the battery, tax on electricity, and even personal property tax on the battery. I don't understand, do you pay an extra tax on the battery? Sales & property tax on a $60k car should always be the same, regardless of powertrain.
- xur17 4y ago
  I'm guessing the argument is that EV's cost more upfront (since they include a battery, etc), but have a lower cost of use. Since you get charged sales tax on the upfront cost, EV's get charged sales tax on a larger percentage of the overall "ownership cost" of the car.
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    Exactly. With gas cars, you pay for gasoline over time. With electric cars, you pay about 50/50 upfront on battery & over time on electricity. EV owners are being punished for paying for part of the “fuel” costs upfront. For whatever reason, capital costs for consumers are penalized with taxes more than incremental operating costs.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      I mean, we don’t charge lower gas taxes to luxury cars because they pay more upfront, so I don’t know why this is now an expectation for EVs. And we’ve never had flat taxes for sales; gas is actually the only exception in the US I’m aware of, but that’s probably because of the price volatility of gas making a percentage tax hard to budget for.
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      > For whatever reason, capital costs for consumers are penalized with taxes more than incremental operating costs. How so? Is the gas tax lower than the purchase taxes?
      - Robotbeat 4y ago
        Yes, plus personal property tax. If I own the car for 8 years before selling it and the battery is about $10,000 In value and the sales tax rate is 6% or so, the tax I’m paying is already equal to the gas tax I already typically would pay driving a 30mpg the average number of miles per year in a typical state. And some localities have personal property taxes, and that $10,000 battery often puts the car in a higher bracket, so you end up paying a 4% personal property tax EVERY YEAR on the battery, which is about 5 times what state gas tax would be. And keep in mind many states already charge EV owners a high registration fee that more than makes up for the lack of state gas taxes. So sales tax plus personal property tax plus EV registration fee… you’re already paying nearly an order of magnitude more than the typical consumer pays state gas tax. It’s a pretty stupid idea to charge far more taxes for far lower emissions vehicles if you think climate change is real. Regardless of your rationale about use taxes or whatever. It’s just stupid.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  The electric car I drive (LEAF) costs about $12K-15K more than the roughly comparable ICE car (Versa). Taking the lower estimate, the sales tax difference in my state is $750, which is the state gas tax on just over 3100 gallons or about 100K miles of gasoline purchased for the car.
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    Yup, and consider that sales tax applies any time the car is sold, and often cars are sold multiple times in their lives.

shkkmo 4y ago

The amount of road funding in the US that comes from gas taxes and road fees varies by state between 1/3 to 2/3. Georgia is one of the lower and funds 40% of road spending from gas taxes, road fees, and tolls (using 2017 numbers.) [0] [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-20/mapping-how-u-s-states-pay-for-roads https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-20/mapping-h...

zip1234 4y ago

Georgia is 3rd in Federal road subsidies: https://www.ajc.com/news/feds-transportation-spending/ https://www.ajc.com/news/feds-transportation-spending/ Usage/registration fees pay for less of roads than people think. There is also this: https://taxfoundation.org/states-road-funding-2019/ https://taxfoundation.org/states-road-funding-2019/

vel0city 4y ago

It really depends on the road in question. I've absolutely voted for city bond projects paid for by property taxes which paid to redo intersections and sections of roads maintained by the city. There are county roads which are maintained by the county which gets most of its funding from property taxes, sales taxes, and vehicle registration taxes. Sure, some funding for some of these projects also come from the state's budgets which is often backed by gas taxes, some funding is from federal sources often by gas taxes, but some of it does come from my property taxes. Then there are state roads, which are almost entirely funded from state and federal (gas) taxes, and federal roads which are almost exclusively funded from gas taxes. On an average day the roads I personally drive on are probably at least 50% funded from property and sales taxes paid by my neighbors and me. Most of my miles driven are almost exclusively on streets managed by my city. For my neighbors commuting deeper into the city driving on a US highway, its probably closer to 5-10% coming from property and sales taxes.

bobthepanda 4y ago

At the state level, sure, but local roads are paid for by local governments using local general taxes, no? A random suburban residential street is not usually getting gas tax money.

asdff 4y ago
A random suburban residential street could get away with being repaved every 100 years. The ones in my neighborhood bear contractor stamps from the 1920s at least. A big source of road wear is trucking traffic and usually truck routes are along state routes that get state gas tax funding for maintenance at least.