4 ms·

> I don’t see how a computer racer that destroys human competition would make the game more entertaining, I guess there’s work to do there to not make the AI re

> I don’t see how a computer racer that destroys human competition would make the game more entertaining, I guess there’s work to do there to not make the AI reliably pull of highly risky moves. Well, if we left things to non-Human racing we'd soon realize we're severally out matched with enough data and an unlimited engineering budget: Adrian Newey's X2014 launched on GT 6 and was the first example of this [0]. I'm not sure if it's just about destroying the competition making people lose interest, or more like breaking the 9 minute mark at the Nordschleife and seeing that it can be done and raising the bar. I guess I can see there being some novelty in that, but I'd get tired of it personally since I've suspected and always kind of knew this time would eventually come. I'm convinced at this point we can build a Formula E car with enough on track data to break lap records that can never be achieved by Humans in any of the previous F1 iterations; it's the same when even the best fighter pilots cannot withstand certain g forces that allow drones/unmanned pilots to make aerial feats that would kill a Human. Striving to be 'that guy' who got closest to the AI has it's appeal and I'm guessing Sony think so too? If the goal is to sell as many copies of the game and extra DLC, proprietary driving setups/steering wheels, online memberships, Sony TVs, PS5 etc... I think this strategy makes some sense to Sony. People literately spent billions on Fortnight upgrades in it's first 2 years [1], so it stands to reason if you can get a DLC for a specific car/setup that makes you competitive against the AI it could work. 0: https://www.wired.com/2013/12/red-bull-x2014/ https://www.wired.com/2013/12/red-bull-x2014/ 1: https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/3/22417447/fortnite-revenue-9-billion-epic-games-apple-antitrust-case https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/3/22417447/fortnite-revenue-...

Someone 4y ago
But for an electronic game, players can’t discriminate between AIs that are incredibly good (and thus could be something expert players try to emulate) and AIs that cheat (and thus frustrate experts). In this example, I think the AI is close to cheating, if not doing it already. It seems to know awfully well how slippy the road surface is. “This back-and-forth between GT Sophy and the game happens 10 times a second, which Wurman and his colleagues claim matches the reaction time of human players” already may mean the AI is cheating. A literal interpretation has the AI get live data every 100ms, and react as soon after that as it wants (given current CPUs, that could easily be within a ms), while humans act more as if they receive data from x ms ago, and react y ms later (with x and y in the tens of ms)
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > I think the AI is close to cheating, if not doing it already. It seems to know awfully well how slippy the road surface is. Well, I've played the endurance rounds with some friends on GT when we were in the off-season and rebuilding our cars so we pulled out our bucket seats from our cars and had the wheel and peddle setup to have a laugh: these are the kind of races that take 3+ hours with drive swaps in between and have gotten close to winning on completely worn tires only to then be clipped from behind from a lapped AI car and lose it all a couple of laps away from checkered flag. It's frustrating, but we tried again that day and got the award and I think Sony knew that it's loyal customer base always would, which is why it's moving in this direction without even hiding what it's doing. If you want pure racing simulators without all the fluff, perhaps iracing is exclusively where you'll have to go for that now. I'm not exactly sure what to say about it now that I'm older with less time and patience (and perhaps jaded about the video game Industry as a whole) for such things or the fact that I study AI/ML but I see this more as a data-driven iterative step towards leveraging it's brand in order to maximize engagement Online via social media [0] and sales via video games new business model (DLC and other misc purchases) than it is about providing the 'The Real Driving Simulation.' Which makes the intro of GT2 (still the best in my view) [1] all the more ominous with it's choice of music being a form of Machiavellian foreshadowing and crushing poignance. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIm11cthgWU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIm11cthgWU 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e701QHyCr0o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e701QHyCr0o

Someone 4y ago

But for an electronic game, players can’t discriminate between AIs that are incredibly good (and thus could be something expert players try to emulate) and AIs that cheat (and thus frustrate experts). In this example, I think the AI is close to cheating, if not doing it already. It seems to know awfully well how slippy the road surface is. “This back-and-forth between GT Sophy and the game happens 10 times a second, which Wurman and his colleagues claim matches the reaction time of human players” already may mean the AI is cheating. A literal interpretation has the AI get live data every 100ms, and react as soon after that as it wants (given current CPUs, that could easily be within a ms), while humans act more as if they receive data from x ms ago, and react y ms later (with x and y in the tens of ms)

Melting_Harps 4y ago
> I think the AI is close to cheating, if not doing it already. It seems to know awfully well how slippy the road surface is. Well, I've played the endurance rounds with some friends on GT when we were in the off-season and rebuilding our cars so we pulled out our bucket seats from our cars and had the wheel and peddle setup to have a laugh: these are the kind of races that take 3+ hours with drive swaps in between and have gotten close to winning on completely worn tires only to then be clipped from behind from a lapped AI car and lose it all a couple of laps away from checkered flag. It's frustrating, but we tried again that day and got the award and I think Sony knew that it's loyal customer base always would, which is why it's moving in this direction without even hiding what it's doing. If you want pure racing simulators without all the fluff, perhaps iracing is exclusively where you'll have to go for that now. I'm not exactly sure what to say about it now that I'm older with less time and patience (and perhaps jaded about the video game Industry as a whole) for such things or the fact that I study AI/ML but I see this more as a data-driven iterative step towards leveraging it's brand in order to maximize engagement Online via social media [0] and sales via video games new business model (DLC and other misc purchases) than it is about providing the 'The Real Driving Simulation.' Which makes the intro of GT2 (still the best in my view) [1] all the more ominous with it's choice of music being a form of Machiavellian foreshadowing and crushing poignance. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIm11cthgWU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIm11cthgWU 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e701QHyCr0o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e701QHyCr0o