5 ms·

The way salaries are expressed in France is needlessly complex, and doesn't translate to anything in the USA. So when you see 60k€, what it really means is: 84k

by Xixi 4y ago

The way salaries are expressed in France is needlessly complex, and doesn't translate to anything in the USA. So when you see 60k€, what it really means is: 84k€ (before taxes, healthcare, retirement, etc.) and 40k€ (after all taxes). Where the 60k€ comes from is... complicated, but has to do with the distinction between taxes, employee social contributions and employer social contributions. That's three layer of "taxes" or tax-like stuff, giving 4 different ways to express the salary: "total cost", "gross", "net", and "net after taxes". [1] Usually companies advertise the "gross" salary. Yes, taxes are really high, but that includes a generous retirement pension, a generous employment insurance if you lose your job, you won't get bankrupt if you get sick, universities and Grandes Écoles are free [2] so your kids won't need to get into debt to study. That said, overall you are probably better off at a FAANG in SV... [1] Calculator: https://mon-entreprise.urssaf.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net https://mon-entreprise.urssaf.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-ne... [2] Except fancy private business schools that can be very expensive. Most STEM Grandes Écoles are free. EDIT: seems I'm wrong, and actually it is similar in the US. My bad!

Aunche 4y ago
Is that different from the US? Employers pay half of social security and Medicare, as well as payroll taxes.
junofan 4y ago
It sounds the same. We call the 84k figure “fully loaded,” 60k is salary, and 40k is “take-home.”
badpun 4y ago
> Yes, taxes are really high, but that includes a generous retirement pension Are the France state pensions that much higher than in the US? Average US social security pension is around $1700 per month IIRC.
- refurb 4y ago
  Take a look at the maximum pension payment (which you'd get as a programmer in the US making more than > $147,000 per year) between France and the US. France: €1,714 ($1,714 USD) per month in 2022 [1] US: $3,345 per month for someone who files at full retirement age [2] [1] https://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_3.html https://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_3.html [2] https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/questions-answers/maximum-ss-benefit.html https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/questions-an...
  - crooked-v 4y ago
    Of course, who knows how long Social Security is actually going to last, given the repeated Republican tactic of squeezing money from its line items to give to tax cuts instead.
    - badpun 4y ago
      Macron is pushing for similar things in France.
  - Xixi 4y ago
    Not a specialist at all: I relocated to Japan, and have only worked about one year in France... But you are missing a (big) piece of the French pension scheme: the Agirc-Arrco system, which is mandatory and complement the base system your link is referring to. Someone at 60k€ should expect a total retirement of roughly 3,200€/month (back of the envelope calculation). Someone making 150k€ would expect a retirement of about 7,000€/month (again, back of the envelope calculation). Making 300k€, you would expect close to 14k€/month (again, back of the envelope calculation). I think that's pretty much the maximum you can get, it doesn't scale much further than that.
    - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
      Off-topic: any reasons related to the current topic that you relocated to Japan?
- jltsiren 4y ago
  International comparisons are difficult, because the numbers are rarely comparable. The US system is based on paying large amounts of money to people, who then use large amounts of money for paying for various services. The European system pays or subsidizes many of those services with tax money, while nominal wages and benefits are lower. The US social security is not a pension system. It's a welfare system designed to pay for basic necessities for those with no other substantial income. Its nominal target is replacing 40% of income, though that decreases with income. Mid-income people already receive less than 40% of their former wages. Mandatory pensions typically replace 60-80% of income. Their purpose is to support retirement without a substantial decrease in quality of life. The French system, as far as I understand, is rather generous, aiming to replace 70-80% of income.
badpun 4y ago
> That said, overall you are probably better off at a FAANG in SV... Lol, probably? At FAANG, you can retire with a house at 35-40. In France, you retire with a small flat at 70.
- namdnay 4y ago
  > In France, you retire with a small flat at 70 while working at a FAANG? hardly. sure, you'll be paid 150kE instead of 300k$, but it's still more than enough to be in the top 5% of the country
  - badpun 4y ago
    I'm guessing there's way less positions at FAANGs in France per million people than there are in the US. Hence, it makes them more elite and not a fair comparison.

by Xixi 4y ago

Aunche 4y ago

Is that different from the US? Employers pay half of social security and Medicare, as well as payroll taxes.

junofan 4y ago

It sounds the same. We call the 84k figure “fully loaded,” 60k is salary, and 40k is “take-home.”

badpun 4y ago

> Yes, taxes are really high, but that includes a generous retirement pension Are the France state pensions that much higher than in the US? Average US social security pension is around $1700 per month IIRC.

refurb 4y ago
Take a look at the maximum pension payment (which you'd get as a programmer in the US making more than > $147,000 per year) between France and the US. France: €1,714 ($1,714 USD) per month in 2022 [1] US: $3,345 per month for someone who files at full retirement age [2] [1] https://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_3.html https://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_3.html [2] https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/questions-answers/maximum-ss-benefit.html https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/questions-an...
- crooked-v 4y ago
  Of course, who knows how long Social Security is actually going to last, given the repeated Republican tactic of squeezing money from its line items to give to tax cuts instead.
  - badpun 4y ago
    Macron is pushing for similar things in France.
- Xixi 4y ago
  Not a specialist at all: I relocated to Japan, and have only worked about one year in France... But you are missing a (big) piece of the French pension scheme: the Agirc-Arrco system, which is mandatory and complement the base system your link is referring to. Someone at 60k€ should expect a total retirement of roughly 3,200€/month (back of the envelope calculation). Someone making 150k€ would expect a retirement of about 7,000€/month (again, back of the envelope calculation). Making 300k€, you would expect close to 14k€/month (again, back of the envelope calculation). I think that's pretty much the maximum you can get, it doesn't scale much further than that.
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    Off-topic: any reasons related to the current topic that you relocated to Japan?
jltsiren 4y ago
International comparisons are difficult, because the numbers are rarely comparable. The US system is based on paying large amounts of money to people, who then use large amounts of money for paying for various services. The European system pays or subsidizes many of those services with tax money, while nominal wages and benefits are lower. The US social security is not a pension system. It's a welfare system designed to pay for basic necessities for those with no other substantial income. Its nominal target is replacing 40% of income, though that decreases with income. Mid-income people already receive less than 40% of their former wages. Mandatory pensions typically replace 60-80% of income. Their purpose is to support retirement without a substantial decrease in quality of life. The French system, as far as I understand, is rather generous, aiming to replace 70-80% of income.

badpun 4y ago

> That said, overall you are probably better off at a FAANG in SV... Lol, probably? At FAANG, you can retire with a house at 35-40. In France, you retire with a small flat at 70.

namdnay 4y ago
> In France, you retire with a small flat at 70 while working at a FAANG? hardly. sure, you'll be paid 150kE instead of 300k$, but it's still more than enough to be in the top 5% of the country
- badpun 4y ago
  I'm guessing there's way less positions at FAANGs in France per million people than there are in the US. Hence, it makes them more elite and not a fair comparison.