5 ms·

Salaries are terrible in France - a senior dev earns maybe 60k euros (~60k USD).

by nivenkos 4y ago

Scarblac 4y ago
What's so terrible about that?
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  It's the fact that prices are similar to the US. The only exceptions could be housing in the coastal US cities. Even so, with a 60k salary you won't be able to afford to buy anything bigger than a shoebox in Paris, if that. And if you live further out, and need to commute by car, gas is more expensive than in California. Also, the 60k are probably before income tax, which as far as I understand, is higher than in the US.
  - SettembreNero 4y ago
    60k gives you ~3200€/month, which allows you to rent kinda easily a 30m² apartment in Paris or banlieue prochaine (suburbs) - even better if you go further out. In addition very few people commute with a car in Paris, most people use public transportation (usually up to 1.5 hours if you leave really far from the city), which costs 75€/month and by law if you have a CDI (Contract of indeterminate employment) it's half payed by the employer (IDK if it applies to other forms of employment, but it's a fair assumption). Of course if you live somewhere else than Paris it's even better, and in every case you also count in universal healthcare.
    - junofan 4y ago
      Freshman interns make like double that.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      > 60k gives you ~3200€/month, which allows you to rent kinda easily a 30m² apartment in Paris or banlieue prochaine (suburbs) Easily does a lot of heavy lifting. I'd doubt you'd find a 30m2 in a nice neighborhood. Source: I looked last year. I was also specifically talking about buying. > Of course if you live somewhere else than Paris it's even better You'll probably be making less than 60k in that case, if you can even find a job… > and in every case you also count in universal healthcare. It depends. If you break your leg or something else critical, sure. If you need any other kind of care (hospital stay, glasses, or even some dental work) you better have a "mutuelle", which seems similar to the US model of employer provided health insurance, in that not everyone has it. Also, this comes out of your 60K, and part of it is included in the tax base, so it isn't completely "free".
      - Bayart 4y ago
        > You'll probably be making less than 60k in that case, if you can even find a job… Paris has the largest job market but there still a lot of jobs around the country. In my area, which couldn't be further away from Paris, senior profiles take 65-80k gross/year.
      - SettembreNero 4y ago
        > I'd doubt you'd find a 30m2 in a nice neighborhood meh. I make less than 3200 net/month and iI live inside a 33m2 2 pieces in a completely normal part of the 20eme, if I'd go to other still nice but cheaper parts of Paris/banlieue prochaine on the metro I could probably do even better. About buying, I've lived in places with an higher buying cost/rent price. But still, the market is mental and buying an house in the 2nd most expensive city in the world is completely different to live a decent life off a salary like 60k/year (which is medium-high compared to the average one in Paris, which is 48k/y). Of course more aristocratic arrondissements are much more expensive and the Paris house market is completely mental, but that's another issue. > You'll probably be making less than 60k in that case, if you can even find a job… Mah! Other sibling comment already addressed that > It depends. If you break your leg or something else critical, sure. If you need any other kind of care (hospital stay, glasses, or even some dental work) you better have a "mutuelle", which seems similar to the US model of employer provided health insurance, in that not everyone has it. Also, this comes out of your 60K, and part of it is included in the tax base, so it isn't completely "free". It's mandatory and for the bigger part payed by the employer. Anyway, that's the concept of "taxes" in Europe. One could argue that the US model of health insurance is better, but that's easily proven false.
    - schnitzelstoat 4y ago
      30m2 is absolutely tiny though - that's 323 sqft. I should hope they can 'kinda easily' rent that. Remember that in the US most decent jobs (certainly any which would pay €60k in France) include health insurance so then universal healthcare isn't such a big benefit either.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        >I should hope they can 'kinda easily' rent that. Ask the Germans, where you basically have to wait for someone to die, so that an apartment comes on the market for renting. Maybe it's better in France.
    - throwaway22032 4y ago
      Okay, cool. So you work full time in a highly skilled career and you can afford to... rent a flat, as long as you keep working full time forever. That's.... nice, I guess?
      - SettembreNero 4y ago
        > So you work full time and you can afford to... rent a flat fixed that for you. welcome to modern society :) (also, you kinda forget to realize that 60k is much higher than most of what skilled job positions currently offer, except for the tech bubble, where senior profiles in Europe - especially in Paris - make way more than 60k)
        throwaway22032 4y ago
        Whatever, the point is, renting a flat is not some sort of fantastic lifestyle aspiration. "Congrats, you're not homeless!"
  - Emma_Goldman 4y ago
    It amazes me how utterly ignorant the most privileged people in the world are about the stupendous luxury in which they live. 60,000 USD is 58,000 Euros at current exchange rates, which equates to a post-tax annual income of 37500 Euros in France. If you were only supporting yourself, that would place you in the top 1.6% of earners in the world. It would be an effective income 17x the global median.[1] Now, these are estimates, and some of the underlying data is outdated, but the basic point is clear. It would provide you with, relatively speaking, a historically and globally unprecedented level of affluence. After that point more money is going to do almost nothing to improve your well-being - doing creative and meaningful work, having good relationships, having a well balanced mind, etc., is going to be far more important. [1] https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=37500&countryCode=FRA&household%5Badults%5D=1&household%5Bchildren%5D=0 https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=...
    - DocTomoe 4y ago
      You mistake the concept of money with the concept of wealth. Not the highscore-like number on your payslip is what matters - but what you can get with it. Just ask someone from Zimbabwe how they feel being a vingtiollaire [1]. So ... yes, technically, if you earn 37500 Euros post-tax, you are the 2%. And if you live in Laos, you're living the good life. In Paris, however, things will be hard. [1] https://kagi.com/proxy/5653f337-ac74-470a-8651-231e5f3fee60.jpg?c=h7imQ8UITVgTxqd5AUw0OaR7kWdBF0PYy2Mefmjcx-d2bKC8CEmlyvF-XJAGlRS9w21P9SKaGECQopW0xhVTJWSE7FyYUyB6HpEtJrhOydzN7K9txtgHCov4ofUZ7g5SXFNpigC19KtdVTgw8ZpdEHQpWo4oOP739SQ4GmrdiZM%3D https://kagi.com/proxy/5653f337-ac74-470a-8651-231e5f3fee60....
      - Emma_Goldman 4y ago
        Click on the methodology, it adjusts for purchasing power.
        DocTomoe 4y ago
        In very broad strokes. 37500 in Metz is very different from 37500 in Paris.
  - Scarblac 4y ago
    Yes, compared to software engineers in the US it isn't much. But the US is the poster child for overconsumption, it shouldn't be the norm. 60k in France is above average in one of the richest countries in the world. Paris is a collection of shoebox apartments, if you want to have a larger house, don't go live in Paris.
    - zero_iq 4y ago
      Yeah, Paris isn't good for comparisons with the rest of France. My French colleague insists that Paris should not be considered part of France! :)
Xixi 4y ago
The way salaries are expressed in France is needlessly complex, and doesn't translate to anything in the USA. So when you see 60k€, what it really means is: 84k€ (before taxes, healthcare, retirement, etc.) and 40k€ (after all taxes). Where the 60k€ comes from is... complicated, but has to do with the distinction between taxes, employee social contributions and employer social contributions. That's three layer of "taxes" or tax-like stuff, giving 4 different ways to express the salary: "total cost", "gross", "net", and "net after taxes". [1] Usually companies advertise the "gross" salary. Yes, taxes are really high, but that includes a generous retirement pension, a generous employment insurance if you lose your job, you won't get bankrupt if you get sick, universities and Grandes Écoles are free [2] so your kids won't need to get into debt to study. That said, overall you are probably better off at a FAANG in SV... [1] Calculator: https://mon-entreprise.urssaf.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net https://mon-entreprise.urssaf.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-ne... [2] Except fancy private business schools that can be very expensive. Most STEM Grandes Écoles are free. EDIT: seems I'm wrong, and actually it is similar in the US. My bad!
- Aunche 4y ago
  Is that different from the US? Employers pay half of social security and Medicare, as well as payroll taxes.
- junofan 4y ago
  It sounds the same. We call the 84k figure “fully loaded,” 60k is salary, and 40k is “take-home.”
- badpun 4y ago
  > Yes, taxes are really high, but that includes a generous retirement pension Are the France state pensions that much higher than in the US? Average US social security pension is around $1700 per month IIRC.
  - refurb 4y ago
    Take a look at the maximum pension payment (which you'd get as a programmer in the US making more than > $147,000 per year) between France and the US. France: €1,714 ($1,714 USD) per month in 2022 [1] US: $3,345 per month for someone who files at full retirement age [2] [1] https://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_3.html https://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_3.html [2] https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/questions-answers/maximum-ss-benefit.html https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/questions-an...
baby 4y ago
They're bad compared to the US were devs are treated like rockstars, agree. That being said, you get free healthcare, free schooling, much more holidays, maternity leave, gun control laws, nice cities to live in, etc. I'm one of the few that left to the US and followed the money, but I was the only person in my class going abroad every time I've done it. That being said, I'd be nice to go back to Europe just for the quality of life.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
And your income tax is like ~45%...
frozencell 4y ago
> Salaries are terrible France is a two-system country. In "real France" (Switzerland and Luxembourg), SWE average salary is CHF 1,06,713 per year. (1 CHF ~= 1 EUR)
- kgwgk 4y ago
  Readers beware: Do not read 1,06,713 as ~ one million as I did.
rozenmd 4y ago
Maybe before covid/remote work was freely available. I recently interviewed around (in France), the low ball offers were 90k euro base.

Salaries are terrible in France - a senior dev earns maybe 60k euros (~60k USD).

Scarblac 4y ago

What's so terrible about that?

vladvasiliu 4y ago
It's the fact that prices are similar to the US. The only exceptions could be housing in the coastal US cities. Even so, with a 60k salary you won't be able to afford to buy anything bigger than a shoebox in Paris, if that. And if you live further out, and need to commute by car, gas is more expensive than in California. Also, the 60k are probably before income tax, which as far as I understand, is higher than in the US.
- SettembreNero 4y ago
  60k gives you ~3200€/month, which allows you to rent kinda easily a 30m² apartment in Paris or banlieue prochaine (suburbs) - even better if you go further out. In addition very few people commute with a car in Paris, most people use public transportation (usually up to 1.5 hours if you leave really far from the city), which costs 75€/month and by law if you have a CDI (Contract of indeterminate employment) it's half payed by the employer (IDK if it applies to other forms of employment, but it's a fair assumption). Of course if you live somewhere else than Paris it's even better, and in every case you also count in universal healthcare.
  - junofan 4y ago
    Freshman interns make like double that.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    > 60k gives you ~3200€/month, which allows you to rent kinda easily a 30m² apartment in Paris or banlieue prochaine (suburbs) Easily does a lot of heavy lifting. I'd doubt you'd find a 30m2 in a nice neighborhood. Source: I looked last year. I was also specifically talking about buying. > Of course if you live somewhere else than Paris it's even better You'll probably be making less than 60k in that case, if you can even find a job… > and in every case you also count in universal healthcare. It depends. If you break your leg or something else critical, sure. If you need any other kind of care (hospital stay, glasses, or even some dental work) you better have a "mutuelle", which seems similar to the US model of employer provided health insurance, in that not everyone has it. Also, this comes out of your 60K, and part of it is included in the tax base, so it isn't completely "free".
    - Bayart 4y ago
      > You'll probably be making less than 60k in that case, if you can even find a job… Paris has the largest job market but there still a lot of jobs around the country. In my area, which couldn't be further away from Paris, senior profiles take 65-80k gross/year.
    - SettembreNero 4y ago
      > I'd doubt you'd find a 30m2 in a nice neighborhood meh. I make less than 3200 net/month and iI live inside a 33m2 2 pieces in a completely normal part of the 20eme, if I'd go to other still nice but cheaper parts of Paris/banlieue prochaine on the metro I could probably do even better. About buying, I've lived in places with an higher buying cost/rent price. But still, the market is mental and buying an house in the 2nd most expensive city in the world is completely different to live a decent life off a salary like 60k/year (which is medium-high compared to the average one in Paris, which is 48k/y). Of course more aristocratic arrondissements are much more expensive and the Paris house market is completely mental, but that's another issue. > You'll probably be making less than 60k in that case, if you can even find a job… Mah! Other sibling comment already addressed that > It depends. If you break your leg or something else critical, sure. If you need any other kind of care (hospital stay, glasses, or even some dental work) you better have a "mutuelle", which seems similar to the US model of employer provided health insurance, in that not everyone has it. Also, this comes out of your 60K, and part of it is included in the tax base, so it isn't completely "free". It's mandatory and for the bigger part payed by the employer. Anyway, that's the concept of "taxes" in Europe. One could argue that the US model of health insurance is better, but that's easily proven false.
  - schnitzelstoat 4y ago
    30m2 is absolutely tiny though - that's 323 sqft. I should hope they can 'kinda easily' rent that. Remember that in the US most decent jobs (certainly any which would pay €60k in France) include health insurance so then universal healthcare isn't such a big benefit either.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >I should hope they can 'kinda easily' rent that. Ask the Germans, where you basically have to wait for someone to die, so that an apartment comes on the market for renting. Maybe it's better in France.
  - throwaway22032 4y ago
    Okay, cool. So you work full time in a highly skilled career and you can afford to... rent a flat, as long as you keep working full time forever. That's.... nice, I guess?
    - SettembreNero 4y ago
      > So you work full time and you can afford to... rent a flat fixed that for you. welcome to modern society :) (also, you kinda forget to realize that 60k is much higher than most of what skilled job positions currently offer, except for the tech bubble, where senior profiles in Europe - especially in Paris - make way more than 60k)
      - throwaway22032 4y ago
        Whatever, the point is, renting a flat is not some sort of fantastic lifestyle aspiration. "Congrats, you're not homeless!"
- Emma_Goldman 4y ago
  It amazes me how utterly ignorant the most privileged people in the world are about the stupendous luxury in which they live. 60,000 USD is 58,000 Euros at current exchange rates, which equates to a post-tax annual income of 37500 Euros in France. If you were only supporting yourself, that would place you in the top 1.6% of earners in the world. It would be an effective income 17x the global median.[1] Now, these are estimates, and some of the underlying data is outdated, but the basic point is clear. It would provide you with, relatively speaking, a historically and globally unprecedented level of affluence. After that point more money is going to do almost nothing to improve your well-being - doing creative and meaningful work, having good relationships, having a well balanced mind, etc., is going to be far more important. [1] https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=37500&countryCode=FRA&household%5Badults%5D=1&household%5Bchildren%5D=0 https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=...
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    You mistake the concept of money with the concept of wealth. Not the highscore-like number on your payslip is what matters - but what you can get with it. Just ask someone from Zimbabwe how they feel being a vingtiollaire [1]. So ... yes, technically, if you earn 37500 Euros post-tax, you are the 2%. And if you live in Laos, you're living the good life. In Paris, however, things will be hard. [1] https://kagi.com/proxy/5653f337-ac74-470a-8651-231e5f3fee60.jpg?c=h7imQ8UITVgTxqd5AUw0OaR7kWdBF0PYy2Mefmjcx-d2bKC8CEmlyvF-XJAGlRS9w21P9SKaGECQopW0xhVTJWSE7FyYUyB6HpEtJrhOydzN7K9txtgHCov4ofUZ7g5SXFNpigC19KtdVTgw8ZpdEHQpWo4oOP739SQ4GmrdiZM%3D https://kagi.com/proxy/5653f337-ac74-470a-8651-231e5f3fee60....
    - Emma_Goldman 4y ago
      Click on the methodology, it adjusts for purchasing power.
      - DocTomoe 4y ago
        In very broad strokes. 37500 in Metz is very different from 37500 in Paris.
- Scarblac 4y ago
  Yes, compared to software engineers in the US it isn't much. But the US is the poster child for overconsumption, it shouldn't be the norm. 60k in France is above average in one of the richest countries in the world. Paris is a collection of shoebox apartments, if you want to have a larger house, don't go live in Paris.
  - zero_iq 4y ago
    Yeah, Paris isn't good for comparisons with the rest of France. My French colleague insists that Paris should not be considered part of France! :)

Xixi 4y ago

The way salaries are expressed in France is needlessly complex, and doesn't translate to anything in the USA. So when you see 60k€, what it really means is: 84k€ (before taxes, healthcare, retirement, etc.) and 40k€ (after all taxes). Where the 60k€ comes from is... complicated, but has to do with the distinction between taxes, employee social contributions and employer social contributions. That's three layer of "taxes" or tax-like stuff, giving 4 different ways to express the salary: "total cost", "gross", "net", and "net after taxes". [1] Usually companies advertise the "gross" salary. Yes, taxes are really high, but that includes a generous retirement pension, a generous employment insurance if you lose your job, you won't get bankrupt if you get sick, universities and Grandes Écoles are free [2] so your kids won't need to get into debt to study. That said, overall you are probably better off at a FAANG in SV... [1] Calculator: https://mon-entreprise.urssaf.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net https://mon-entreprise.urssaf.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-ne... [2] Except fancy private business schools that can be very expensive. Most STEM Grandes Écoles are free. EDIT: seems I'm wrong, and actually it is similar in the US. My bad!

Aunche 4y ago
Is that different from the US? Employers pay half of social security and Medicare, as well as payroll taxes.
junofan 4y ago
It sounds the same. We call the 84k figure “fully loaded,” 60k is salary, and 40k is “take-home.”
badpun 4y ago
> Yes, taxes are really high, but that includes a generous retirement pension Are the France state pensions that much higher than in the US? Average US social security pension is around $1700 per month IIRC.
- refurb 4y ago
  Take a look at the maximum pension payment (which you'd get as a programmer in the US making more than > $147,000 per year) between France and the US. France: €1,714 ($1,714 USD) per month in 2022 [1] US: $3,345 per month for someone who files at full retirement age [2] [1] https://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_3.html https://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_3.html [2] https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/questions-answers/maximum-ss-benefit.html https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/questions-an...

baby 4y ago

They're bad compared to the US were devs are treated like rockstars, agree. That being said, you get free healthcare, free schooling, much more holidays, maternity leave, gun control laws, nice cities to live in, etc. I'm one of the few that left to the US and followed the money, but I was the only person in my class going abroad every time I've done it. That being said, I'd be nice to go back to Europe just for the quality of life.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago

And your income tax is like ~45%...

frozencell 4y ago

> Salaries are terrible France is a two-system country. In "real France" (Switzerland and Luxembourg), SWE average salary is CHF 1,06,713 per year. (1 CHF ~= 1 EUR)

kgwgk 4y ago
Readers beware: Do not read 1,06,713 as ~ one million as I did.

rozenmd 4y ago

Maybe before covid/remote work was freely available. I recently interviewed around (in France), the low ball offers were 90k euro base.