4 ms·

When you look into the studies for antidepressants, the track record is abysmal. They’re not innocuous, trigger serious side effects, some are hard to quit, bu

When you look into the studies for antidepressants, the track record is abysmal. They’re not innocuous, trigger serious side effects, some are hard to quit, but more importantly they only make a difference in people with extremely severe depression. And doctors often downplay or don’t mention side effects honestly because they don’t want patients to not take them. The studies justifying antidepressants as effective to the FDA are disturbingly flawed: people who were not responsive were excluded from the studies… Anyway, I found this website very enlightening on the topic: https://www.theinnercompass.org/learn-unlearn/intervention/antidepressants https://www.theinnercompass.org/learn-unlearn/intervention/a... along with several Reddit threads from peoples experience with various antidepressants. This is not medical advice and there are cases where antidepressants are necessary and make a difference. But if you have anything else than extreme depression and no other mental health conditions (schizophrenia etc), consider magic mushroomed: a few intentional trips can do wonders to see what’s troubling you from a different angle and help you move forward.

can16358p 4y ago
Any links to the Reddit threads if handy? I'm interested for personal issues and Reddit always comes much more useful than actual psychiatry in my case (not sarcasm, I frankly mean it).
- ornornor 4y ago
  I used “site:Reddit.com antidepressants” or with specific medicine names. Use ddg for that because the site: thing hasn’t worked on google in years and you’ll get poor results.
PraetorianGourd 4y ago
Yeah an unregulated and uncontrolled consumption of a poorly dosed hallucinogenic is totally better than a double-blind study of SSRI/SNRI. I swear, I do not reject the possibility that hallucinogenics can cure depression better than existing meds, but the almost religious enthusiasm for such a poorly studied chemical is deeply concerning. And yes, before you accuse me of being a pharma shill, I know that the lack of serious study is due to legal restrictions and not scientific evidence. But that doesn’t change the fact that they’ve not been studied rigorously. In my State, they are being actively studied, let us hold back the praise until the results are in.
- ornornor 4y ago
  You do you of course. You can grow your own mushrooms at home fairly easily and then you have more control over quality/contamination etc.
  - grenoire 4y ago
    Correct, in theory. However, if you are just starting out growing you won't have the knowledge to assess quality or control contamination.
  - mellavora 4y ago
    Ok, so you have some control over quality. I'll also be generous and assume you have good estimate of dosages and/or some way to maintain consistency of dosages (anyone else reading this, the standard advice is to take less than you think you want and wait 45 min or so, then take more if needed to reach planned cruising altitude. This works if you have enough prior experience to calibrate by, otherwise is very difficult). How do you know which dosage is best for treating depression? Assuming the best treatment is a series of sessions, how do you know the optimal spacing of sessions, and the optimal dosing per session? You are correct that the trips should be intentional. Who sets these intentions, which intentions are the most helpful, how do you guide the session along the lines of the intentions (recalling that the session might include full ego death and conviction that both your mind and reality are distinct and permanently broken) and most importantly how do you structure the post-session therapy to integrate the learnings and actually get some personal growth out of this? Are there age-related differences in this? What is the protocol for a early 20s vs a mid-50s vs 70s/80? Also, to look at your own advice ("if you have anything else than extreme depression and no other mental health conditions") how do you actively screen for this? These are concerns which are well addressed within shamanic circles-- so I'm not speaking with the voice of pharma here. Psychedelics are powerful tools. Like any other power tool, they can be a great help and also fairly risky if not used carefully. Insert your own woodshop analogies here. And if you are going to use them anyway, without working with someone who knows what they are doing, please please please: 1) start with small doses 2) do some reading BEFORE. Minimal list: Hudson Smith, "Cleansing the Doors of Perception" and James Fadiman The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide: Safe, Therapeutic, and Sacred Journeys
raducu 4y ago
The track record is not abysmal: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/ssris-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/ssris-much-more-than-y...
- ornornor 4y ago
  > more importantly they only make a difference in people with extremely severe depression Which your link confirms. And your link also states that antidepressants were oversold, especially to people with mild depression, a level for which antidepressants aren’t particularly good at treating especially in light of the side effects and difficulty to quit.
  - arolihas 4y ago
    It seems like you didn’t really read it, just the initial list of claims that he addresses. > 5. The effect of antidepressants only becomes significant in the most severe depression – Everything about this statement is terrible and everyone involved should feel bad

can16358p 4y ago

Any links to the Reddit threads if handy? I'm interested for personal issues and Reddit always comes much more useful than actual psychiatry in my case (not sarcasm, I frankly mean it).

ornornor 4y ago
I used “site:Reddit.com antidepressants” or with specific medicine names. Use ddg for that because the site: thing hasn’t worked on google in years and you’ll get poor results.

PraetorianGourd 4y ago

Yeah an unregulated and uncontrolled consumption of a poorly dosed hallucinogenic is totally better than a double-blind study of SSRI/SNRI. I swear, I do not reject the possibility that hallucinogenics can cure depression better than existing meds, but the almost religious enthusiasm for such a poorly studied chemical is deeply concerning. And yes, before you accuse me of being a pharma shill, I know that the lack of serious study is due to legal restrictions and not scientific evidence. But that doesn’t change the fact that they’ve not been studied rigorously. In my State, they are being actively studied, let us hold back the praise until the results are in.

ornornor 4y ago
You do you of course. You can grow your own mushrooms at home fairly easily and then you have more control over quality/contamination etc.
- grenoire 4y ago
  Correct, in theory. However, if you are just starting out growing you won't have the knowledge to assess quality or control contamination.
- mellavora 4y ago
  Ok, so you have some control over quality. I'll also be generous and assume you have good estimate of dosages and/or some way to maintain consistency of dosages (anyone else reading this, the standard advice is to take less than you think you want and wait 45 min or so, then take more if needed to reach planned cruising altitude. This works if you have enough prior experience to calibrate by, otherwise is very difficult). How do you know which dosage is best for treating depression? Assuming the best treatment is a series of sessions, how do you know the optimal spacing of sessions, and the optimal dosing per session? You are correct that the trips should be intentional. Who sets these intentions, which intentions are the most helpful, how do you guide the session along the lines of the intentions (recalling that the session might include full ego death and conviction that both your mind and reality are distinct and permanently broken) and most importantly how do you structure the post-session therapy to integrate the learnings and actually get some personal growth out of this? Are there age-related differences in this? What is the protocol for a early 20s vs a mid-50s vs 70s/80? Also, to look at your own advice ("if you have anything else than extreme depression and no other mental health conditions") how do you actively screen for this? These are concerns which are well addressed within shamanic circles-- so I'm not speaking with the voice of pharma here. Psychedelics are powerful tools. Like any other power tool, they can be a great help and also fairly risky if not used carefully. Insert your own woodshop analogies here. And if you are going to use them anyway, without working with someone who knows what they are doing, please please please: 1) start with small doses 2) do some reading BEFORE. Minimal list: Hudson Smith, "Cleansing the Doors of Perception" and James Fadiman The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide: Safe, Therapeutic, and Sacred Journeys

raducu 4y ago

The track record is not abysmal: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/ssris-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/ssris-much-more-than-y...

ornornor 4y ago
> more importantly they only make a difference in people with extremely severe depression Which your link confirms. And your link also states that antidepressants were oversold, especially to people with mild depression, a level for which antidepressants aren’t particularly good at treating especially in light of the side effects and difficulty to quit.
- arolihas 4y ago
  It seems like you didn’t really read it, just the initial list of claims that he addresses. > 5. The effect of antidepressants only becomes significant in the most severe depression – Everything about this statement is terrible and everyone involved should feel bad