4 ms·

I think I'm missing something, could someone clarify? I think trying to persuade anyone to start smoking is evil. But society is generally accepting of market

I think I'm missing something, could someone clarify? I think trying to persuade anyone to start smoking is evil. But society is generally accepting of marketing that's tailored to different demographics, including race. So what's especially noteworthy about marketing cigarettes differently to black people vs. others? AFAIK, regardless of race, the tobacco companies wanted to maximize their profits at the cost of their customers' lives.

quattrofan 4y ago
jrm4 4y ago
Good point. This is the sort of thing that should make us all go a bit deeper on this: Perhaps it is marketing that is fundamentally evil. Why should we be accepting of an entire industry dedicated solely to trying to convince people to buy things they literally do not need?
- kqr 4y ago
  Someone in marketing would tell you that they aren't trying to convince people to buy things they don't need (that's an expensive way to pay for customers to abandon your product, generally) but that they are helping people understand that the problem they've had for a long time is solved by a product.
  - pseudo0 4y ago
    Unfortunately step one of that process is often convincing people that they have a problem, sometimes through questionable methods. It's easy to make a teenaged girl feel like her appearance is a problem when the basis for comparison is a photoshopped Instagram model, for example. Inducing demand for a product like that does not seem very beneficial for society.
- Thorrez 4y ago
  Cigarettes harm people. Is that the case for most products? Certainly not to the same degree, but I wonder to what degree buying different types of products helps vs harms people. What we truly need to live is very little. What we want tends to be much more. Jesus said that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. To what degree is our materialistic society harming us?
- Gustomaximus 4y ago
  People do needs things. And people do want choice and information. Marketing is no more evil than programming or any role. All roles have people use it detrimentally and unethically. I'm a marketer and only once felt less ethical in my role (pushing credit cards for a bank group) but most of the time is good work, promoting decent products to people as an alternate to the popular choice, which in itself drives competition and product improvement. While I would personally love to see better ad regulation in the world to do thinks like reduce billboards and tracking etc I still think it clear the world would be a worse place if companies were not allowed to promote their product.
  - _aavaa_ 4y ago
    I agree that companies must have the legal right to provide potential customers with information about their products. But essentially every advertisement I’ve ever seen is so far removed from “providing information” that characterizing them as such is a joke. What they provide is a made up story of how good your life will be with this product (it bad it will be without it). That isn’t providing information, it’s manipulating people.
    - Gustomaximus 4y ago
      > But essentially every advertisement I’ve ever seen is so far removed from “providing information” that characterizing them as such is a joke. I would say this is more what you notice. A huge amount of advertising is about brand awareness. Logos on sports teams etc Awareness is often not telling people anything, only trying to become part of someone's consideration set when they price compare 3 car insurances type thing. Or much of the comparison sites are paid ads essentially but they do it in a way that provides good information. Or if you watch Marques Brownlee type youtubers, a bunch of what they do is an ad but their brand is to give honest opinions while paid. Or how many ads simply show a product and a price type display? Absolutely some ads are manipulating, but I suspect if you consciously look around you'll see many if not most are not manipulating, and your conscious brain seems to remember the ones you dislike hence to view it is the vast majority. Anyway feel free to hate marketing :) I would really like to see less outdoor ads and better regulation in general but at the risk of being a bit specific to your wording I felt I needed to show another side to that view.
- bfuller 4y ago
  Marketing does cause numerous harms, but there is a great argument to be made that marketing to children specifically is inherently unethical.
kazinator 4y ago
Probably, the key is this (in the article): "Despite the advertising consultants’ success, as evidenced by increased product sales, many critics became concerned that their efforts would target white children, and so instead the tobacco companies turned their attention to Black consumers." Wikipedia: "Despite it being illegal at the time, tobacco marketers gave out free menthol cigarette samples to children in black neighborhoods in the U.S." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menthol_cigarette https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menthol_cigarette Rearranged facts/claims from another website, the American Lung Association's: * When inhaled, menthol can reduce airway pain and irritation from cigarette smoke and suppress coughing, giving smokers the illusion of breathing more easily. * Tobacco companies have relied on the soothing and cooling effects of menthol to make cigarettes more appealing to new smokers, youth, Black Americans and LGBTQ Americans among others. * Menthol cigarettes have also been found to increase both the likelihood of becoming addicted and also the degree of addiction. * Flavors, including menthol, are one of the primary reasons kids start using tobacco products. * More than 8 in 10 of Black Americans who smoke use menthol cigarettes. * About half of youth smokers ages 12-17 smoke menthols. That percentage is higher than the about 40% of adults 18 and older who prefer menthols. https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/health-effects/what-is-menthol https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/health-effec...
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Also, this fits the repeated pattern of: Hey, your business is doing something detrimental to people. People have political power, so stop it. What if we just do it to people that don't have political power. Carry on. You see this with large corporations being slowly forced to change their ways in their home countries while continuing the same practices in developing nations. Or locally, where businesses that affect air pollution are allowed in some populated areas but not others where those with political sway live. Some people, when being told "don't sell your death sticks to children" would perhaps reconsider the whole selling death sticks thing. Others will find and exploit every weakness in the system to continue making money from it. https://borgenproject.org/top-6-facts-about-smoking-in-developing-countries/ https://borgenproject.org/top-6-facts-about-smoking-in-devel... Of particular note, is the tactic where if a government tried to restrict harmful products, you buy politicians and undermine the whole democratic process. Reference the decades of wasted money and lives that the "Merchants of Doubt" have caused, likely the greatest and most effective attack ever on human civilization.

quattrofan 4y ago

jrm4 4y ago

Good point. This is the sort of thing that should make us all go a bit deeper on this: Perhaps it is marketing that is fundamentally evil. Why should we be accepting of an entire industry dedicated solely to trying to convince people to buy things they literally do not need?

kqr 4y ago
Someone in marketing would tell you that they aren't trying to convince people to buy things they don't need (that's an expensive way to pay for customers to abandon your product, generally) but that they are helping people understand that the problem they've had for a long time is solved by a product.
- pseudo0 4y ago
  Unfortunately step one of that process is often convincing people that they have a problem, sometimes through questionable methods. It's easy to make a teenaged girl feel like her appearance is a problem when the basis for comparison is a photoshopped Instagram model, for example. Inducing demand for a product like that does not seem very beneficial for society.
Thorrez 4y ago
Cigarettes harm people. Is that the case for most products? Certainly not to the same degree, but I wonder to what degree buying different types of products helps vs harms people. What we truly need to live is very little. What we want tends to be much more. Jesus said that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. To what degree is our materialistic society harming us?
Gustomaximus 4y ago
People do needs things. And people do want choice and information. Marketing is no more evil than programming or any role. All roles have people use it detrimentally and unethically. I'm a marketer and only once felt less ethical in my role (pushing credit cards for a bank group) but most of the time is good work, promoting decent products to people as an alternate to the popular choice, which in itself drives competition and product improvement. While I would personally love to see better ad regulation in the world to do thinks like reduce billboards and tracking etc I still think it clear the world would be a worse place if companies were not allowed to promote their product.
- _aavaa_ 4y ago
  I agree that companies must have the legal right to provide potential customers with information about their products. But essentially every advertisement I’ve ever seen is so far removed from “providing information” that characterizing them as such is a joke. What they provide is a made up story of how good your life will be with this product (it bad it will be without it). That isn’t providing information, it’s manipulating people.
  - Gustomaximus 4y ago
    > But essentially every advertisement I’ve ever seen is so far removed from “providing information” that characterizing them as such is a joke. I would say this is more what you notice. A huge amount of advertising is about brand awareness. Logos on sports teams etc Awareness is often not telling people anything, only trying to become part of someone's consideration set when they price compare 3 car insurances type thing. Or much of the comparison sites are paid ads essentially but they do it in a way that provides good information. Or if you watch Marques Brownlee type youtubers, a bunch of what they do is an ad but their brand is to give honest opinions while paid. Or how many ads simply show a product and a price type display? Absolutely some ads are manipulating, but I suspect if you consciously look around you'll see many if not most are not manipulating, and your conscious brain seems to remember the ones you dislike hence to view it is the vast majority. Anyway feel free to hate marketing :) I would really like to see less outdoor ads and better regulation in general but at the risk of being a bit specific to your wording I felt I needed to show another side to that view.
bfuller 4y ago
Marketing does cause numerous harms, but there is a great argument to be made that marketing to children specifically is inherently unethical.

kazinator 4y ago

Probably, the key is this (in the article): "Despite the advertising consultants’ success, as evidenced by increased product sales, many critics became concerned that their efforts would target white children, and so instead the tobacco companies turned their attention to Black consumers." Wikipedia: "Despite it being illegal at the time, tobacco marketers gave out free menthol cigarette samples to children in black neighborhoods in the U.S." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menthol_cigarette https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menthol_cigarette Rearranged facts/claims from another website, the American Lung Association's: * When inhaled, menthol can reduce airway pain and irritation from cigarette smoke and suppress coughing, giving smokers the illusion of breathing more easily. * Tobacco companies have relied on the soothing and cooling effects of menthol to make cigarettes more appealing to new smokers, youth, Black Americans and LGBTQ Americans among others. * Menthol cigarettes have also been found to increase both the likelihood of becoming addicted and also the degree of addiction. * Flavors, including menthol, are one of the primary reasons kids start using tobacco products. * More than 8 in 10 of Black Americans who smoke use menthol cigarettes. * About half of youth smokers ages 12-17 smoke menthols. That percentage is higher than the about 40% of adults 18 and older who prefer menthols. https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/health-effects/what-is-menthol https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/health-effec...

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Also, this fits the repeated pattern of: Hey, your business is doing something detrimental to people. People have political power, so stop it. What if we just do it to people that don't have political power. Carry on. You see this with large corporations being slowly forced to change their ways in their home countries while continuing the same practices in developing nations. Or locally, where businesses that affect air pollution are allowed in some populated areas but not others where those with political sway live. Some people, when being told "don't sell your death sticks to children" would perhaps reconsider the whole selling death sticks thing. Others will find and exploit every weakness in the system to continue making money from it. https://borgenproject.org/top-6-facts-about-smoking-in-developing-countries/ https://borgenproject.org/top-6-facts-about-smoking-in-devel... Of particular note, is the tactic where if a government tried to restrict harmful products, you buy politicians and undermine the whole democratic process. Reference the decades of wasted money and lives that the "Merchants of Doubt" have caused, likely the greatest and most effective attack ever on human civilization.